Dr. Kevin’ Philosophy on Pitching

“Get fast down the mound” has become a default cue in modern pitching, and we think it’s a big reason so many arms are breaking. Coach Brian Hull joins me for a role-reversal Q&A where we dig into the mechanics that actually hold up over time, especially for high school pitchers who need both velocity and longevity. We start with the core idea behind the up-down-out approach: load the back hip first, get into the ground, and let that set the timing so the arm isn’t forced to play catch-up.

From there we zoom in on front foot strike and sequencing. We talk about what “on time” really looks like, why early drift tends to create a late arm, and how rushed arm action can show up as drag, inverted W patterns, and unnecessary strain on the UCL and shoulder. I lay out my Tommy John formula (drift, shrug, drag) and why each piece can push pitchers toward the same outcome: a late arm under stress for too long. We also challenge trendy drills and early hip opening by comparing pitching to hitting, golf, and football, where leaking the hips early is an instant power leak.

We finish with practical coaching solutions: drills to clean up foot drag, how to teach mechanics backwards from a strong finish, and why foundational movement like squats, hinging, and rotation has to come before “high-level” pitching work. We also cover warm-up efficiency when practice time is tight, throwing volume with purpose, recovery red flags based on where soreness shows up, grip tension (“hold the ball like an egg”), and even why set-shot basketball can build safe extension without beating up the arm.

If you coach, pitch, or parent a pitcher, hit play, then subscribe, share this with your staff, and leave a review with the one cue you’re removing from your pitching program.

Transcript

Welcome And Coach Background

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey everybody, this is Dr. Kevin McGovern with another Velocity RX podcast. And I have back for his second, his repeat performance, Coach Brian Hull, all the way from Colorado, has joined us on the line again, and we're gonna just talk some pitching. So welcome, coach. How are you? And why don't you tell the uh listeners a little bit about yourself in case they missed the last show?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Thanks again for having me on, Dr. McGovern. Brian Hull here. I am a local high school baseball coach in the Denver metro area out in Thornton, Colorado, and I've coached high school baseball for about 15 years. And this year I'm part of a new program where the program's kind of rebuilding on the coaching staff, and I'm just having a great time working with the pitchers in my program where in the past I don't believe they've had too much structure and consistency. So my goal this year is of course working mechanics, but just making the routine pre predictable and structured so my guys can be their best selves. And I've just really been going over the pictures manual I created, and that's kind of the baseline behind everything my guys are doing, and it's their constant reference point during practices and also after games.

Backside Load Beats Drift

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Awesome. So you wanted to kind of do a little role reversal here, which is great, and and ask me some some questions. Last time I interviewed you a little bit about your pictures manual, so have at it. Awesome. I'll see what knowledge I can knowledge I could I could give to you as best I can.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, and I know I mean you've looked over the pictures manual, and I know you and I seem pretty aligned with mechanical stuff, and I want this to be as educational as possible. For I'm hoping a lot of kids around the country watch this episode because offline we were kind of talking about yes, mechanics can help your performance, but at the end of the day, it's well, you're gonna be able to pitch in 10 years with the current mechanics that you have. And a lot of times, personally speaking, I learned the hardware where I was a good pitcher, but I think a breakdown of mechanics costed me a shortened playing career. So, my first question to you is I know we've talked a lot about the up-down-out method, where mechanically I'm always teaching my boys balance point, and then their first movement must be down. Simultaneously, as they're going down, they're breaking their hands over the rubber and sitting in that back hip to what you call the single leg squat. So, with that said, so why do you think it's so important to load the backside or the back hip before the pitcher drifts down the mound?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Great question. So I always I when I get that question, I always go back to well, we can stick with baseball, right? We load when we hit, we load when we play tennis, we load when we play golf, right? So we want to get that weight transfer on our back leg and then get it to the front leg to then rotate around. I mean, that's just you know, physics, I guess, from that. We want to get into the ground as much as we possible. That's gonna, you know, turn on our glutes, our back extensors, our hamstrings, all all of that. But what it does from a practical standpoint is it helps arm timing. So we've we've we have seen this huge increase in pitching injuries, but we've also seen a difference in how pitching is taught. Go back 25 years ago and pick a pitcher. Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, David Cohn, go back further. Bob Feller, Jim Palmer, you're gonna see what we're talking about down the slide and then out. Now, in the last 15 years, you're gonna see something drastically different. You're gonna see people teaching you to jump, literally, I've seen jump forward, get fast down the mound. All these ridiculous comments that when you get your center of gravity moving or falling, or for you know, fall. What athlete wants to hear the word fall? Look, how is that coordinated? The whole toll and fall. How is that coordinated? Yeah, I'm gonna jump up for a rebound and fall. No, the only time you hear fall, you learn how to fall in two sports that I know of martial arts and professional wrestling. That's only to protect yourself. So what that does is it makes your arm late. I have not seen anyone in me in until proven of someone who moves their center of mass linear forward, okay, and their arm is on time. I haven't seen it. I just haven't seen it. And when your arm is late, we know by Dr. James Andrews and many studies, that puts a tremendous amount of force on the arm and shoulder, and that's the number one cause of Tommy John injuries from a mechanical standpoint is a late arm that's under a valgus force for way too long. And the more I look at it, the more you see me dissect pros and and and other college, you'll see that center of mass going linear and not down. The arm just does not catch up, and that's the number one reason why.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Well, and that kind of leads me to my next question. But first, I've seen you pull some stuff on the whole light arm, of course, but space specifically at front foot strike. I'm always telling my boys, and correct me if I'm wrong, but at front foot strike, your arm should basically be done moving, and what's moving now is the lower body to the torso. Torso brings the arm to. So I'm always telling them there cannot be any more muscle moves in your arm after front foot strike because then it's the whole malsequencing where only one thing can happen, and that's something bad.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, I like that. You know, what do they call it? The power L. You know, I want the humorous below 90 degrees, right? So I want the arm relaxed, but I want that those shoulder, I know some people call it scap loading, they make up these terms, but you know, scapular depressed shoulders, relaxed upper traps, and a relaxed arm for that matter, right? And then the trunk is gonna move, then you're gonna see your arm in the periphery, and then you accelerate it. And by that time, is it should be accelerating, it should be past noon on the clock and heading in a gravity-assisted position. But when people drift and they have lots of arm and they take the ball out of their glove and they're they point it back, and you know, the inverted W, when they do that, the arm is you can see the blur. When they turn, the blur is is behind them. They're dragging the arm. And I mean, the muscles of I mean, you know, your flexor tendon, you're looking at very tiny muscles being led and dragged against force by huge muscles of your trunk and legs and everything else. And to me, that's all got to come at once. Leg, arm, torso has got to come at one time.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

So, speaking of that, my next question for you was um along the lines of hip rotation. So I know you and I have talked about this a little bit, but speaking of front foot strike, I'm always telling my boys at that front foot strike, they've got to swivel their hips extremely aggressive, so that that brings the torso through, and then the torso brings the arm through. So, with that in mind, how important do you think this hip rotation and sequencing at front foot strike is? And what are some common mistakes you've seen pitchers do in the past when trying to create power out of the hips?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Well, that's that's vital. As soon as the front foot hits the ground, the next move needs to be proximal. The spine needs to be rotating at the belly button, pelvis, wherever, and then everything is is rotating around there. What I have seen, obviously, is what I call the figure skater, where they're turning and they're leaving the leg back still connected to the ground in some sort of, you know, you know, figure skaters are skating on that one, they got the leg hanging back. I mean, in my case, that could be 70 pounds. Roger Clemens' case, 70 pounds, and they're leaving that leg back. But naturally, when you rotate your spine and pelvis, your body thinks it's walking, it wants to take that step. And to leave that leg back there, either connected to the ground or just dragging behind it, is going against the body's natural movement to walk forward. I mean, that that's just it. And to me, anytime you're doing something against the body's natural movement pattern, you're asking for problems. And I see drill. I mean, I every time I see one on Instagram, I'm posting, I mean, I saw one crazy drill the other day where the guy had his drill he was doing, had his front front leg down. They were throwing the kid balls, and his back leg looked like he was like a dog taking a pee on a fire hydrant. His back knee was on a plyo box behind him. And you could just see the arm, just and of course, then you get people like, oh, he's using his body. Ha, how? How is he using his body? Just explain that to me. With his back leg kneeling on a plyo box behind him. It's just because you have that too. Like you've got those people who are just we could look at the same thing, and then people are like, no, that's that's that's that's fine. It's kind of like politics. Like you look at two other things and come up with two completely different answers. But the the science could be proven, right? Like I could look at this and be like, look, see the blur? That's behind his head. That's against that's up against gravity. So I see these training methods. Like a martial artist would never do an overhand hammer fist to break a bunch of bricks and leave his back leg behind him. Ever. You're never gonna see outreach and just do that. Never. But like, so it makes no sense. That's a good analogy. It makes no sense. And I tell that to kids, and and like I've done drills where I'll be okay, throw, and they'll, you know, they'll do the what I call the Nancy Kerrigan, they'll leave the leg back there. And I'm like, okay, now I want you to envision a folding table in front of you. And when you finish, you need to smash through that folding table. And as soon as I say that, every single kid back leg, now it doesn't, it's not perfect, that back leg will move forward. I'm like, why'd you just move that back leg? And they look at you for a second. And most of the answers, well, I didn't think I'd have enough power. Well, what's the difference between smashing that table and throwing a fastball? This much of release point? And that's that's what I get. And there's so much that's taught in pitching what I feel that goes against the body's natural movement patterns, you know, drifting and not loading and leaving that back leg, and then of course the shrugging, which is you know, all part of my Tommy John injury formula, all three of those, which all go against the body's natural, either natural movement pattern or you know, how the body is supposed to move, neurological pattern.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Well, and and I that gets gets me, I think, in one or two questions I'm gonna ask you about your Tommy John formula. But speaking of trading methods, I saw one out there last week, and I I know you saw it as well because I saw you commenting on it, but someone was teaching that as they're going down the mound to open their front hips into landing versus keeping the front sight closed as long as possible, and then at landing is when your body does its thing with the hip rotation, torso rotation, arm through the zone. And speaking of power, physics-wise, you're losing power the minute you're drifting or leaking uh your hips out into front foot.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Of course. And if you did that in hitting, you're out in front of the ball, right? I mean, like I always go back to go to another sport. If I open my hips, I just you just fooled me on the pitch. I just stepped in the bucket, right? If I did that in golf, I'd shank it into the woods. Like, it's just I I don't I don't know why pitching has gotten away from basic movement. Like, how about a quarterback? He opens up his hips like that, he's gonna throw the ball 20 feet, right? It's it's just it's it, but for pitching and and with the dawn of social media, whoever does the nuttiest thing, like it just seems they get the and then that becomes like the mo modus operandi. Like, no, no, no. And I'll always be like, prove that. And then of course they don't answer you, you know, or they you know tap back at you, like, you're stupid. Well, just just prove it, prove, prove that opening your hips, right? Which is like we have to we have, you know, the the like potential energy. I took a slingshot and I brought it back as I'm loaded, and now you're telling me to let it go halfway, and then it's supposed to have the same amount of power. Just prove that to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

And that's yeah, no, that's I I think I may use that one. In a way, it's that's very similar. You're you're just momentum at the way.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

That's potential energy, right? The definition is like you load your body, you load, you put you know, the muscle fibers, you you crush them, mush them, whatever you want, and then you gotta let them go. That's just basic, that's basic science and physics. But yeah, you know, what do I know?

Tommy John Formula Explained

SPEAKER_00 14:38

So we so you already mentioned this like a couple of times, but okay, your Tommy John formula. So your three components is the drift, the shrug, and the drag. So drift, I know you define as falling down the mound before you're gaining power from the ground. Then the shrug is literally shrugging the inverted W, which breaks the which breaks a which breaks a big law.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That's that's not just made up by Kevin McGovern. That breaks the scapular humor rhythm law, right? And that says for every three degrees of elevation of my shoulders, my shoulder blade needs to turn into the spine and depress. So if I shrug, my shoulder blades literally move opposite of that law.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

So, and two guys I think of as Mark Pryor and Steven Strasberg back, I mean, I mean, it's not that long ago, but no, it's funny. Growing up, I always told people, man, their mechanics are awesome, like they are so crisp. Well, people said now, but now in hindsight, explain to me. I know I know these three components are bad, but why specifically are these three components related to the UCL and Tommy John?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, obviously, so the drift is a timing issue, right? The drag, again, timing issue. Everything comes down to getting the arm on the arm, the timing of the arm. And obviously, the shrug makes your arm long. It's all comes down to having a late arm. So every Tommy John recipient has had at least one, if not all three. The guy from the Yankees, Clark Schmidt, is the only person I've seen recently in the last so many years who only had one. And I believe his was the drag. He dragged his back leg, but he didn't he didn't shrug and he didn't drift, but he dragged his back leg, which made his arm late. And of course, he just had Tommy John surgery. So, you know, that's that's and and then you know, position players are getting into the same issue, and a lot of theirs is you know, they're they're doing this out of the glove, they're into the into into the shrug, which literally it's like trying to drive your car forward in in reverse, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So then, and I know you mentioned the power L earlier in this episode. So are you saying just because I always teach my boys you're you're right here, and then my glove sight is right out in front. I'm in the power L. But I'm I don't feel my trapezius muscles working. Would you say it's just straight out right here?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I gotta let you know a little secret. I tell them to hold on to the ball until the catcher throws it back. Meaning, keep it in your glove. Your brain, it's a really smart apparatus, runs a lot of things, your brain is gonna know where your arm has to be to throw. As soon as you take it out of your glove, now muscles have got to hold that up. And when you turn, now those muscles are working against you going forward. Just keep it in your glove. Like I've done I've done camps where I'll put the ball into my shorts in my pocket and turn, and my arm is right where it needs to be. Just keep it in your glove, nice and relaxed. It will find its way in its own. It doesn't need you to find its way. Because as soon as you say put it somewhere, right? Now they're saying, oh, I gotta take it. Then now you're talking about an active movement, and I want this to be a whip.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

And I'm glad you mentioned that because I know you and I were very aligned with mechanics and you like the up-down-out method. And as I had previously said, I teach my boys like you go up, you break your hands over the rubber. So, and I know you're a big fan of Clemens and Mariana Rivera. So I may be misunderstanding you when you say keep the ball in your glove as long as possible. So I'm always here, you're up, down, out. What do you what exactly? So are you saying they need to keep the ball in their glove as they're falling down the mound? Or do they does that need to be happening before they start falling?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

No, they could they could they could keep it in their glove until front foot strike, literally. I mean that's what a quarterback does, right? Quarterback doesn't come here because the guy, the guy's gonna strip sack them, right? Quarterback is right here until he's ready to throw. Right? And that's you know, I'm not saying yours is wrong. I'm just saying, you know, you gotta remember you're teaching, you know, my you we're in the same age class of of kids, right? So, you know, if we're teaching a 25-year-old high-level professional pitcher, yeah, then we could, you know, we could say, okay, get in that power L teaching adolescent, they're gonna be tinkering, right? I want as much on autopilot as possible. And to me, the longer you hold on to the ball, no, that that makes the more that arm becomes on autopilot. That would yeah, that's all. Yep, that's it. That's it. It's not there's nothing what you're saying is incorrect, but then you got guys, oh this, you know, again, sure, sure. It's just about really it's really about taking this out of their equation, and they're just it's just on autopilot, you know. I mean, that's all. And sometimes when you do drills, right, you drill it past where it needs to be, so then when you do an actuality, it backs up to where it's supposed to be.

Fixing Foot Drag With Drills

SPEAKER_00 20:29

No, no, no, exactly. That's all. So back to the foot drag. Yeah. So I know you you I know you said the foot drag is a timing issue. Other than the timing issue, and and a power issue, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

You're losing power. I mean, you can you can you can do towel drills all day, and you can have someone keep their leg back there, and you can hear how hard the towel slaps when they bring their leg forward.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

So, what is one of your fixes you have guys do when you when you're working with a pitcher that is always dragging, dragging, dragging, or you see it sometimes, and then a couple pitches it's fixed, and then the next 10 they're dragging again. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So I've got really three specific drills that I do ad nauseum, and I teach pitching backwards in reverse, meaning I teach from the baseball card finish, meaning I'm here in a fielding position, right? So that's my what I call my finish drill. From that fielding position, I take a starting from my belly button, a half turn to the other dugout, and then boom, I'm rotating back. So I'm all I'm that teaches to spin off of that front leg and bend your back. That's the biggest, right? Kids, I today they give half a finish. They're not bending their back enough, they're not driving the ball to home plate. I want them to drive the ball to home plate using that. Once they get that done, then they can get into loaded front. Front foot strike position and then get back to that same position. And then I have what I call the three-tap drill where they're bringing their leg up to their balance point, back down to tap, back up, and then the fourth one, they're throwing all back to that same, that same that same position. So all those three drills flow into one another. So I've got my kids doing that regardless. Like I got my guys moving every day. They don't take days off, like meaning they're not throwing a baseball every day. They're doing between 30 and 50 towel drills every day. They'll pick a drill and they'll do it, they'll do it, they'll do it. So that eventually that that motion becomes that spinning off of that front foot becomes second nature.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

And I don't I don't know your thoughts on this. Sometimes I feel like a foot drag can be because of they're not explosive enough in terms of their lower body, where they they drift so quick, and then they turn all upper body, and then their hips aren't rotating, so their backside has one thing to do, and that's to trail behind everything.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Well, that goes back to our equation to begin with. So maybe pitching is calculus and we haven't learned algebra yet. So what that means is so many kids today cannot move correctly. Their squats are fingers on a chalkboard, right? Their spinal rotation are fingers on a chalkboard. So it's hard to teach calculus to someone who hasn't taken algebra, right? So meaning you have to fix the basic human movement first before we can add on the high levelness of pitching. So that's what you'll see. And you could tell the kid till they're you know blue in the face. Or, you know, one thing I always see is at their balance point, their foot, doing this. Once they do that, they're that you could tell them till you're blue in the face. Keep the weight on their arch. They're never going to be able to do that because they don't have hamstring strength, quad strength, back extensor strength, because we've skipped that and gone into the high. We've, you know, we've always said we went to the penthouse and we didn't build the parking garage first. And we have to build the foundation of movement first before we can go and do high-level, high-level movements of or any sport, lacrosse, basketball, you anything. You have to have the foundational movement first. And that's what I see missing in most kids. But they're in the gym, I can squat 350 pounds, and I have them come in the office and do an air squat. I push them over with one finger because their squat is all wrong. So that means every time they're moving with that weight, they're actually injuring themselves and building bad movement patterns.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, that's that's really intriguing. I always tell my guys when you do drag your back foot, it's almost like I'm behind you pulling your shirt, and there's resistance behind you versus it's like a car running on three cylinders instead of four. I'm keeping your four cylinder and you're cheating yourself.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, all that you're not getting the most out of what your body wants to do. And you know, and there's I took physics a long time ago. But when it's like a mirror-go-round, right? It spins on one pillar. When you have two, how do you rotate off two pillars connected to the ground? How do you rotate off if you're a mirror-go-round? I put another. How do you rotate? You don't, right? It gets caught somewhere. You can only rotate off one. Rotate off two. That force goes up the chain, makes the makes the arm late. We have one pillar to rotate around. That's where we gain power, not two.

Efficient Warm-Ups And Throwing Plans

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I like that. So I want to shift things here a little bit. We've kind of talked mechanics now. My biggest challenge as a coach right now is time. We've got like two and a half hour practices. All my pitchers are two-way guys. They pitch, they hit, they feel. It's hard getting everything in. And when we start practice, I created, I felt like was a pretty good warm-up routine. Again, with health in mind, we've got to activate the muscles, we've got to do all the right things before we start our dynamic warm-up. I have a lot of the guys do soft tissue work, like with lacrosse balls, kind of massaging their rhomboids and their throwing shoulder, and then I have them put on their hip hip abductor bands where they're doing little lateral walks. Then I have them do scap push-ups to really strengthen the muscles between the scapulas. And then I have them do dead bugs. I just want them to activate their cores. And then they do a dynamic warm-up, and then we kind of get into their bands. I'm I don't let them throw a ball until they've done bands, whether it's internal, external, flexion, extension, all that stuff. How long would you say the boys need to be warming up before they actually get into the meat and potatoes of practice?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

I don't know if it's time or if it's the purpose and what is accomplished. So and I've got this on video too. Like I've had someone do a hundred just simple scapular depressions with a five-second hold on a foam roller, get up and throw a ball as hard as they can without any strain to their arm. So it's about what you do, not about how long you do it for. I mean, air squats, I'll show you. I've got, you know, this, you know, the scapula depression, and then what I call a swimmer, where they're coming up, opening, and pulling down, you know, getting those muscles in the back fired up and and doing them a hundred times. Air squats a hundred times. And then, you know, just even marching, what I call like cranes are just mark, you know, one-legged marching 200 feet. That should take no longer than 20 minutes, and they should be ready to do anything. Interesting. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying anything that you're doing is incorrect. I'm just saying, like, if we got, you know, hey, the bus just showed up, we got to be on the field in 10 minutes. This is what this is what you would do to get someone, you know, all the muscles of the body are being activated doing all those. And when you're doing exercises, the more things that you can combine, right? That like if they're doing dead bugs, they also could be rowing, right? You always want to think if they're doing one exercise, what else could I add on to that that could help me? That's another way of doing that's another way of thinking about it, right? Like I'm doing a I'm doing a row of a band. Well, why can't I be squatting as I'm doing that?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, multi-functional, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Why can't I, you know, why can't I be standing on one foot doing that? Right? Why can't I be, you know, throwing and then turning, or you know, that I'm adding multiple movements with just one exercise. That's another way of of of condensing the time, but getting the most benefit out of what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Well, I like to hear that because, like I said, my biggest hindrance right now is time where usually like on a good day, I like my boys with stretching and their activation stuff and their soft tissue prep. That with the throwing is about 45 minutes, which I think is a good sweet spot. But again, when talking with the other coaches I'm coaching with, like they've got so much to do, I've got so much to do, and then before we know it, practice is over. So it's good to have a kind of a priority of examples that you listed that if this if this the only things you can do today, these three things are for example, let's just get these done.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah, this is the emergency triage of movements, but you're not skipping anything, you're you're doing it, you're doing a ton of work in those in those movements. Yep. You know, they can be squatting and rowing and doing all kinds of things as they're uh they could be warming up their arms as they're doing air squats, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

No, I I I like that too. So with with let's talk throwing volume, whether we're getting ready for practice or pre-game during a game day, how long? And again, you may not have an exact answer to this, but give me an average amount of time you think is adequate for boys to start throwing, of course, progressionally in a throwing program-wise, where I like starting on one knee, and then I call the square up drill, then like the power position drill, and then I kind of like a rocking drill, and then balance point drill to get balance and arm timing. How long and how many throwing reps do you think is adequate?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

So I go back to the the three drills that I do. So the finish drill, I'll have them take balls and throw it right into the ground. I don't believe in long toss, don't shoot me, but you know, I don't believe in tilting my spine and throwing a parabola, right? We're throwing the ball down. So that finish drill, that could be, you know, 10 or 20. Then they go to front foot strike drill, that could be just hitting somebody in the chest, then they do their three-tap drill, and then on the mound. So just a little different drills, but it all depends on on what what you know how they feel, but everything is towards every movement I'm doing is promoting their mechanics. That's how I look at that's how I look at warming them up. I don't do anything that doesn't that isn't part of their mechanic. Like if we took a film and went over here, oh okay, they're doing that, they're doing that, they're doing that. That's all I want to, I want to constantly promote full mechanics in everything that they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Well, we're definitely aligned there because I'm always telling my guys for every throwing drill, if you were to ask me why are we doing this, I better have an answer, and I'm gonna be able to relate it to some part that of the sequence in the delivery. Because if I don't know, then it's a waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Agreed. Thousand percent. We're on the same page there. So, you know, everyone, everybody is different. You know, I if they warmed up, they did their scapula depression work, they did their shoulder work. I mean, it shouldn't take a high school kid much longer to get up. You know, what I don't want is 150 pitches in the bullpen before they go out and get ready to throw. That's that's that's insane. I want everything with a purpose, and everything's to a target, too. There's no, you know, we're not we're not throwing just a throw. Those are unneeded. Everything is everything is for a specific purpose. Once we step on the field, everything everything is for a specific purpose.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

I don't care if we're 10 feet away. Throw with a purpose, is what I always tell the guys.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yep, a thousand percent agree with that. Throw with a purpose. Everything has a purpose because practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. So if we do something incorrectly, then that's gonna be a permanent movement pattern. If we practice correctly, then we're gonna have we're gonna have perfect practice makes that's what we want. But practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. So if we practice a bad habit, we're gonna have a bad habit.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

I'm gonna take that one liner away.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, that my martial arts instructor told me that. Chris Hall, I'll give him Chris. That's his, that's not mine, but yes, you you can you can definitely take that.

Recovery Cues Grip And Soreness

SPEAKER_00 34:08

And then probably maybe two more questions. So let's talk recovery. So let's say you're my pitcher, you threw 75 pitches today. Tomorrow, you and I are kind of doing some debriefing, and you say, Coach, my arm is so sore. What can I do today? How do you respond? I usually have a pretty light day the day after throwing, where it's all recovery. I have them do a lot of bandwidth, I have them do some sprinting work, just trying to get a lot of the crud out of the system without overloading the system. Like, what do you think about like one or two days after a start?

SPEAKER_01 34:48

So I'd first ask them where, you know, and if they say, you know, here, here, here, we've got a problem. Okay. If they say my shoulder blade, my butt, my lat, my hamstring are sore, I'm like, rub some dirt on it. Good. That's a good soreness. So if we've got soreness in the big muscles, we are good. If we got soreness in small muscles, we need to, we need to, that needs further evaluation. Okay. But if that's you know, cleared up the next day, we gotta watch it. If it's not, we gotta we've we've we've got a problem. But they should be able to go back and be doing tall drills, their scapula depression, their squat work, if they're throwing with good mechanics. But if they've got soreness in the small muscles, we need to we that could be the car check engine light starting to blink. And and are you saying that's in like their wrist flexors and extenders to your I'd say I'd say anything in their in their arm, especially, I mean, if it's a dull kind of thing, but if you can go and point and you got hot spots, that's something that might need to be looked at. Absolutely. I'm gonna err on the side of caution because you know what we don't want is them to go back out and and and re you know, re-injure that. But you know, definitely between their shoulder blades, maybe their neck, lats, but you know, small muscles, intrinsic, you know, this these guys. Yeah, I'd wanna I'd wanna I'd wanna look into that. You know, and some of it isn't even like I just looked at someone from the Tigers Mowin? Someone someone I I I know what you're talking about. So that guy's gripping the ball like I mean, you saw his forearms go like the incredible hole. Like, so that could be another thing. These guys are squeeze. I mean, I was always told that you hold the ball like an egg, right? Because as soon as you go to throw it, then you're putting pressure on it. But to already have your forearm muscles engorged before you're even in the throwing position, do you know how much strain that's putting on your arm? Like it's just it's it's crazy. They hold the ball like an egg. So that could be another. If you get that, I mean, see, you know, make sure they're not squeezing the bejesus out of the ball. Now, the other thing they can do, which people also make fun of me, is take them off the grass, get them some high tops, and put them in the gym and have them shoot free throws. Have them shoot set shots. Number one, that promotes the squat, which is what we need. Not jump shots, set shots. Promotes extension and it promotes arm strength. I can guarantee you if you go from it's literally probably five miles an hour. So the guys that can shoot consistently and make you know, read they don't have to make the hoop, but reach the rim at 20 feet, if they can take that to 30 feet, Steph Curry land, they're gonna pick up five five miles an hour in velocity. Guaranteed. Safely, safely, remotes extension, remotes full body, and and no stress on the arm. I do that with all my Tom and John guys, too.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

I just love how you're all about functional movement, and I I think I'm really gonna start having my guys really start embedding air squats into anything and everything they're doing. And to your point, I have asked a couple guys, hey, do a squat for me, because we were really trying to work on the single leg squat and set going down the mountain. And I do see a lot of toe, a lot of knees over their toes, which they're more quad dominant versus glute dominant.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

And when you do that, your strength of your like I there's a if you look on my Instagram, top right hand corner, I do a drill with someone hinging incorrectly, and the difference in strength, you know, the one thing I could push him over, and the next thing I'm literally doing a push-up on his bat. It's that much you literally choke off your strength when you move your knees first. It's traumatic. I'd love to be able to get some, you know, measure it, how much power you actually lose.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Well, and again, I always just ask them what muscle is bigger, the quadricep or the glute. And of course, they say the glute. And well, would you rather have that helping you or something smaller helping you?

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Right. Exactly. And it's you know neurologically correct to do that. But you know, you're in Colorado, it snows, snows out here. It's gonna be a snowstorm. Okay, when you go out to shovel, make sure to protect your back. What does everyone say? Bend your knees first, and that's the worst advice in human history. Okay, because it's not bend your knees first, it's hinge your it's hinge your butt back. Bending your knees shuts off all the important muscles you need to save your back, but you know, that's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Sitting in a chair first, sitting in a chair buttons a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Bend your knees first is probably the worst advice in human history.

Lessons Learned Pitcher Manual CTA

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Well, I uh I really like that. That was almost all the main questions I had for you today. Well, I got a couple for you.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

So give me your give me your top two or three things you would tell you, your younger self, like now that you know, now to you know, fifth when you start, 15 years. So what give me three things you would tell your younger self now to know? We'll close with that one.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

You know, honestly, everything we already talked about today, like of course, I'm a big up-down-out guy. I think even personally, senior in high school, I was more of a dr not as drastic as it is today, but my first movement was kind of downhill trying while simultaneously separating or trying to sit on the back leg. But one big thing I've and I've even seen some guys out here do it, and I'm not a big believer in changing arm slot or changing arm angles. So when so I was kind of a short-armed guy out of high school, and then I went to my Division II school, and in September they were really trying to get me to be super, super long in the back, but that's not where I wanted to be at, like neurologically, and I think it's honestly another contributing factor of why I got guaranteed arm slide is completely natural, it depends on chest size, rib, a million different things, yes. But I I would so that but I would also say again, simplify like you can never be too simplified and to have a good delivery, you don't always have to add things. It's what are the most core, most important core components, which we've already talked about, sitting on the backside, driving into the ground, arm timing, hip rotation. I just don't think even when I started my coaching career, I had that knowledge that can translate to other guys. But it's hard because on the same token, you don't want them overthinking so much. Because I tell my guys, we prep for games, but in games, I'm not coaching mechanics. You got to trust your preparation. Because if I'm doing mound visits and I'm saying, hey, sit on the backside or break your hands earlier or later, then their minds are gonna be all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

All over the place. I love it. All right, so Brian, you have written an unbelievable manual that I suggest every person who is in earshot or eye shot of this gets this pitcher's manual. How do they get a hold of you and how do they get this? I've read it, it is fantastic. I'm sure hundreds of hours went into this and read it. And every every high school team in the country should have this in in hand and glued on on the on their eyelids. So in the night they see it, it's there, they see it right there. It's glued. So, how do they get in touch with you to get this pictures manual? Which is how how many pages again? This is no joke.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

How many pages this thing with with uh with references and some of the cheat sheets? I think it's about 280 280 pages of knowledge. Of knowledge, the content itself is about 190.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Well, it's actually 10, it's it's a thousand and ninety. It's really, really good. It's really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Well, and that coming from a guy of your caliber, I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

It's it's it's fantastic. And listen, it takes one, a lot of courage to put yourself out there to write a book, and and two, a lot of time. And you should be congratulated for doing that. And this is a piece of work, and it's great. I hope one day it gets picked up and make you make a ton of money helping people.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Well, and I'm trying to I'm thinking about getting it up on Amazon, but. Currently, if anyone out there listening wanted it, you can email me or go to my website. My email is Brian Hall P E at gmail. So that's B-R-I-A-N-H-U-L-L at gmail.com. And then I'm all I was also a PE teacher for several years, so I'm a big PE guy. And my website is purposefulpe.com. And midway down the landing page, you'll just see my post about the baseball pitchers handbook and the instructions on how to get your hands on that is in that blog post as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Awesome. Well, hey man, thanks. This is this is I like the little roll reversal. I hope, I hope everyone listening, I hope you got something out of it, and and hope everyone got something out of it. And we'll see you next time. I got uh coming up this week, I've got Austin Ehrlicher from the Boston Red Sox, who hopefully was gone from 91 to 98 working with someone. I don't know who. We'll have to maybe find out on Wednesday. But we'll see you guys soon. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Thanks, Kevin.