Velocity Rx Podcast

Transforming Injuries into Opportunities: A Youth Pitcher's Rehab Journey

• Dr. Kevin J. McGovern, PT, CSCS and Dr. Clay Hammons, PT

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A 10-year-old pitcher experiences two elbow fractures within months despite completing "traditional" physical therapy. What went wrong? In this eye-opening case study, Dr. Clay Hammons reveals the startling findings from a comprehensive evaluation that the standard medical approach completely missed.

When this young athlete walked into the clinic, he demonstrated severe limitations that made him fundamentally "not fit to throw a baseball" – 75% restriction in spine mobility, zero degrees of ankle dorsiflexion (should be 10-15°), scapular dysfunction, and an inability to perform a basic squat. Most shocking? These problems were completely overlooked during his previous rehabilitation.

The conversation unveils a revolutionary approach to treating baseball injuries by addressing the entire kinetic chain rather than focusing on the painful area. Within just two weeks of targeted interventions addressing his spine, ankles, and movement patterns, this young pitcher showed remarkable improvements without a single exercise directed at his elbow.

Dr. McGovern and Dr. Hammons discuss how the "cult of velocity" in modern baseball has abandoned proper mechanics for arm-dominant slinging, leading to the paradox of pitchers throwing fewer innings than ever while suffering more catastrophic injuries. They challenge the common misconception that pitching injuries are inevitable, emphasizing that proper assessment can identify and correct risk factors before they lead to injury.

Perhaps the most powerful insight comes from a simple question posed to the young athlete: "Is your arm the engine or the caboose when throwing a baseball?" His incorrect answer – like most youth pitchers – reveals a fundamental misunderstanding that puts countless young arms at risk.

Whether you're a parent, coach, or healthcare provider working with throwing athletes, this episode will forever change how you think about baseball injuries and prevention. The arm doesn't have to be sacrificed on the altar of performance – with the right approach, safety and effectiveness can coexist.

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The Velocity Rx podcast mission is to help save one million arms by giving the very best mechanical, health, and arm care information to it's listeners.

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, it's Dr Kevin McGovern with another VelocityRx podcast. I have my good buddy and colleague back, dr Clay Hammons. Today we're going to start to do a series of actual real-life case studies and talk about it back and forth. But before that I've got to pay some bills. So please click, like and subscribe to this podcast. It helps both of us out. It helps my mission to save one million arms. And please visit VelocityRxorg Today. My new product of my VelocityRx journal dropped today. That's two journal articles a month emailed directly to you with actual, usable information, provable information, followed by two coaching calls group coaching calls per month for $39, which, clay, that's like free right For that.

Speaker 1:

I mean actually that's ridiculously low. But insane value but my that's my mission to help everyone and I don't want cost to be a barrier. So check that out. It's on my website and, clay, I'm certainly going to have you probably write for that journal once we get up and moving with that. Write some guest articles and come on for some guest coaching, all right, so, without further ado, let's get this going. So, clay, you came up with this idea, which I think is great, so why don't you take the ball and let's?

Speaker 2:

lead us off. Yeah, so right off the case study. So a few weeks ago I had a call 10U pitcher. He had little league elbow last October with an avulsion fracture which is just a little bone that's kind of peeled off there with it. Um, so he went through treatment, casting rest, you know, went to a big box PT clinic, went through a whole PT protocol which was, you know, consisted of just like wrist and elbow and shoulder exercises, nothing to address any kind of mechanical faults that you may want to want to see or anything really functional. It's just honed in on the elbow right Finishes.

Speaker 1:

That, like most big box, like most big box clinics, just to help people. What a big box is is your ATIs, your US physical therapies not knocking them. I used to own one that have a million patients there at once, and that's literally because insurance companies pay $3.50 for visits and that you have to see 50 people at a time or you go out of business, you know, and that's what a big and you just don't get the one-on-one care that Clay and I do at a, at a concierge level, which we are cash-based PT.

Speaker 2:

That's right and so you know. Finishes that um gets released to throw again in the spring.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so he goes and throws again who released him to throw the dock the dock, um, but I don't think he.

Speaker 2:

You know they kind of try to ramp up a little bit slower, but I don't think there was anything you know refined by the therapist on like any kind of throwing program or protocol, right and who, like, is this, like, do they follow a certain following program, or is it just kind of go back?

Speaker 2:

I think it would just wing it, just slow and then go right. Yep, so does that for three weeks. And then, uh, march 1st, boom, another revulsion, fracture of the elbow and little league elbow. And so um goes and seeks care from a different physician who deals with this a little bit more directly and kind of goes through the same thing, a little bit of bracing and casting, and then he said hey, I want you to see somebody baseball specific right Finds me, comes in and we do the exam. And I think we've talked before on here about there are certain kids, players maybe of all ages even, that there are certain findings that we find that I would say this child or this kid or this person is not fit to throw a baseball. Okay, until we address these underlying impairments, okay, so I'm going to go through. Or this kid or this person is not fit to throw a baseball, okay, until we address these underlying impairments, okay, so I'm going to go through what we found on this exam. There was a 75% limitation in thoracic and lumbar extension.

Speaker 1:

And now this is on a 10-year-old boy whose flexibility should be off the chart.

Speaker 2:

Correct, okay, scapar dyskinesia. So getting a lot of upper trap involvement whenever he goes to raise the arm during the throwing process. This is on the functional exam. External rotation strength was 4 out of 5 with an infraspinatus trigger point. That was an easy fix. Um went right back to five out of five when we got rid of that trigger point. Ankle dorsiflexion Okay, who, who's going to look at the ankle and relate that to what's going on with the elbow? You, me, yes, right, very, very, very few of us.

Speaker 1:

I can tell you who's not. Yes, tread, driveline velo. You not gonna happen. Armcarecom not gonna happen passive passive ankle dorsiflexion was zero degrees on a 10 year old now no history, of any history of lower leg injury at all, like any kind of like disease process or anything like that. No, and I even asked the dad.

Speaker 2:

I was like hey was he like a toe walker as a kid. Some kids like to walk on their toes. It's like a neurological or developmental thing. He said, you know, not that I remember, but you know my daughter does that. And so I was like, well, maybe he did it too, I don't know, but anyway, um, you know, we need about 10 to 15 degrees of ankle dorsiflexion passively to be able to load the lower half effectively. Um, and he's got, and he's got neutral, which is, you know, you think 10 to 15 degrees isn't much, but in the ankle that's a lot, that's even Dangerous.

Speaker 1:

That would even affect him walking down a stair. You might see him hip hike or do something to go down a stair or get yeah right.

Speaker 2:

And so that got me thinking. I said, well, what's his if he can't dorsiflex, what's his?

Speaker 1:

Sorry, was this on both ankles or just one? Both, both.

Speaker 2:

Both, yeah, bilateral. So that got me thinking well, what's his squat look like? So I said hey, just do a squat. I'm going to guess, not good, not good. He got to about 30 degrees of knee flexion with his squat and his heels went boop because he didn't have the dorsiflexion to even get into a squat and what did his um lordosis look like um bad because he's 75 limitation and extension.

Speaker 2:

We can't even get there right. That was that was the first findings. Um, and then also he had excessive, what we call genu valgus, or his. His knees go in due to lack of glute involvement, so his knees wanted to point there like the high beams were crossing. We want him to stay straight, so guys just to catch up.

Speaker 1:

So doing a functional movement like a squat which in baseball is in any sport, is the most important functional movement, I mean even getting in a set position for the pitch to be thrown. He can't even get into a proper squat and losing his, just losing his lumbar lordosis. The inward curve literally shuts off all of the muscles of his his, his glutes, his hamstring. He's literally locked out of the car Like there's, like he's got, he's on an Island by himself and it's. It's not good. And this is before he's ever thrown a pitch.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, he's already thrown pitches right, but we should, we should be picking this up. So this is one kid that I would look at and do this exam and say you're not, you're not fit to throw a baseball yet. Until we address these, these things, I'll keep going. So those were kind of the big things. And then I looked at his just like pure pitching mechanics, very arm, arm dominant, almost no trunk rotation or flexion with follow through um, his hips and shoulders open way early, just exposing the arm, um kind of getting pushy. Very toe dominant um on the on the back and front sides.

Speaker 2:

so he, you know, again he can't get up on his, so he can't get in dorsiflexion, so he just wants to stay up on his toes, um, you know, on his drive leg, and then when he gets down to his lead leg, block he's, he's on his toe and his knee wants to collapse forward, um. So that's what I found on his pitching mechanics, and so these things, most of these things, were corrected within a week or two.

Speaker 1:

So, guys, when we, when we say all physical therapy is not the same. Here's a kid coming off physical therapy and Clay just outlined a list of things that would be glaring to the naked eye. Just probably just watching the kid walk, you can probably pick up most of that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so those, those were the big things, you know. And and at the elbow he, he had little to to no tenderness to the medial epicondyle, um negative valgus stress testing. So the elbow was pretty much healed at this point. So why am I going to? Why am I going to go in? And just you know, yes, I mean this stuff is good to do, the strengthening, okay, I mean that's fine, you're going to get that. But those other things are the glaring, functional root causes, functions that are the result of his elbow hurting.

Speaker 1:

So what do you think the biggest root cause of his problem was? If you had to pick, or let's say, if you had to pick the top three.

Speaker 2:

What would you say? I would say zero. Ankle dorsiflexion is number one. Um, which, which isn't allowing him to to squat Right? Um, I would say the 75% limitation and the racco lumbar extension would probably be number two. Um, and then scapular dyskinesia.

Speaker 1:

Right, All right. So then, what did you? So how now? What did you do for a treatment plan? How did you start? What did you do? First of all, were you, I'm assuming you showed mom or dad this right, I mean oh yeah, yeah, they were there and you know they're.

Speaker 2:

you know the parents are great, dad's great. He's actually a former baseball player pitcher college.

Speaker 1:

even so, he must've been.

Speaker 2:

Like goodness right, once you see it, you can't look at that. And then you know, he told me yesterday, I saw him yesterday and he was like you know, I wish that I would have had somebody like you when I was younger because, you know, even though I pitched at a higher level like I, I never, I never knew these mechanical things.

Speaker 1:

And guess what? It's still not being taught at higher levels now. And so, yeah, what do we do?

Speaker 2:

I mean we just, we just, we just addressed the dysfunction. So I had him do prone press ups, you know, give him a little bit of overpressure, some manipulation of the spine to try to get his extension back. Um, you know we did ankle dorsiflexion stretches, right, we want to. Um, you know we did ankle dorsiflexion stretches, right, we want to. We want to stress that heel core, we want to stress the gastroc and the soleus um to get him.

Speaker 1:

How was the mobility of his foot? Did you have to do any manipulations there? Subtailor joint. It was fine, great toes was, was was fine.

Speaker 2:

I did do some, some mobs there to increase dorsiflexion at the talocrural joint or the ankle joint, right. Um, we did, um, showed him some self, some self ankle mobilizations he could do at home. Um, uh, showed him a proper squat form that that I wanted him to work on. And uh, we did it with a ball behind his back so it'd be easier for him at first, a little bit more supported, so that he could kind of get that feel like he was sitting down in a chair, able to maintain his lordosis, getting into ankle dorsiflexion, keeping his knees apart. So he's getting glute activation, which is really important while we're on the mound on our drive leg. So showed him those type of things right. So, which is not even none of that's at the elbow, by the way. I haven't nothing.

Speaker 1:

So he's got an elbow problem, but all of his exercises are spine, ankle, hip so, parents, if you're hearing this and your kid has an elbow problem and your therapist is working on the elbow, they're probably working on the wrong thing. Run, yeah, run. I mean literally if they're doing what I call. You know traffic, you know traffic exercises. Run right, yeah, okay, great. So now what did you do for the scapula? Talk to me about that yeah.

Speaker 2:

So the scapula, then we, you know, we went on once. Once those glaring things were addressed, which which really, I mean he's 10 years old those things really improved quickly, faster, yeah, a a lot faster than I even thought. Like within within one to two weeks we had we had full ankle dorsiflexion, full thoracolumbar extension, um, and then so we went into the scap and we said, look, we've, we've got to get out of this upper trap involvement, okay, and so yeah, big time shrugger, big time shrugger like to just shrugger, like to just shrug when we raise right as we see.

Speaker 2:

You know a lot of guys do, even at the pro level, pro level, yeah. So we just started hammering, you know, low trap exercises, things to start getting the scapular down and back right. Training that with external rotation, training that with as we raise our arms, training that with as we raise our arms. So a lot of exercises to promote that kind of down and in motion of the scapula is just going to set the glenohumeral joint up and prevent shoulder impingement.

Speaker 1:

So now, one of the things that I do in this I like to use the half foam roller and I have them lie on it longitudinally one, because I think that it aligns the spine using our friend cerizic newton and gravity, and then give some tactile feedback and I'll literally just have them do you know, isometric contractions down and in to that roller, and then I'll do. And then I'll add a couple things. Right, because no muscles move independently. So as they advance I'll have them do glute sets. Right, and when you're in hook lying, doing a glute set is isn't easy, right? So they'll do the scapula depression and the glute sets and maybe like a pelvic tilt or a transverse abdominus contraction. So now we have everything contracting. Yeah, and then one of the things I do which I don't think people do enough transverse abdominus contraction. So now we have everything contracting.

Speaker 2:

Got it all firing together yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then one of the things I do, which I don't think people do enough, is the serratus muscle. So, guys, the serratus muscle I like to call the cerctus olae muscle, and the reason why is because it's pretty much pound for pound. Besides the tongue, which is, I think, the strongest muscle in the body, the serratus is incredibly strong. Now, why do I call it the Cirque du Soleil muscle? Because that's the muscle. If you lie on your back and do a push of it, or do a bench press and push more, that's your serratus muscle, which you know you can actually hold someone up who's like you know, holding them up by their hands or their feet, like those gymnasts do. So I will literally do that from that same position. I'll have them lie and I'll have them, keeping their arms completely flaccid, reach to their heels and then tuck and I found that to be an enormous success of, and you know and hold all those contractions together yeah, I, I agree.

Speaker 2:

The serratus is great to train, both open chain and closed. Correct, correct, yeah, hands are on the ground. Serratus presses, bear crawls all of that.

Speaker 1:

So people know serratus on the bodybuilders, you know wraps around. You'll see those three fingers. You won't see it on me. Maybe Clay's got that, but I certainly don't.

Speaker 2:

Not anymore, but it really anchors.

Speaker 1:

It really plays a huge role in anchoring the shoulder blade to the thoracic spine and keeping it and keeping it stable. And so muscle it's really not, you know, really not trained very well. Um all right, what was next?

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, so we've just kind of been hammering that home and then you know, once, once all those impairments were fixed, then we went into pitching mechanics and breaking that down in a, in applying what we've learned with the body over into the function that you want to do and perform, which is pitching or Right.

Speaker 1:

And so just to re, just to rewind, before they saw you this kid, he was released to throw, right, yeah, just he was released to throw, which would have been disastrous for that poor kid and so, um yeah, so then we went.

Speaker 2:

You know that's. We're about four weeks along now. We've we've still not thrown a baseball that's great.

Speaker 1:

Are you working on any? So how, like now what's your next? All right, so let's go back up for a sec. So, um, I do a lot of lat work too, and I don't mean like doing pull-ups, I think the lat is kind of like the, the kid the buddy forgot about, like you know the car pulls up and everyone jumps in and takes off, and the last way, hey, what happened?

Speaker 1:

And the reason why I say that is because, as you know, it has function as a lumbar extensor, right, so it's going to help keep the the lordosis and of the back, and also it's a scapular kind of depressor. So I think it gets confused now when we have issues at both ends right. Right, we've got shoulder blades that are out of whack and we've got a lordosis. That's not. So I like to kind of make sure that we're re-educating the lat, and I do that by, you know, kind of. Even we're doing a squat, right, I'll have them, you know, hold that down in scapular depression, just trying to do muscle work at both ends of the kinetic chain, just to kind of increase muscle memory. What say you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, lots are great and I think they play a very important role in both acceleration and deceleration of the arm. Absolutely so me, I, you know, I train a lot of the decelerators and stuff that's going on back here, um, because we can't speed up but we can't slow down. I love that line We've, we've, you know, we've got to be able to hit the brakes and hit them hard before we can, before we can really start working on things that accelerate, and so training a lot of that stuff with them, and then, like I said, just kind of ruthless mastery of just pitching mechanics right now. So we're taking all the, all the stuff that we, that we learned to address the impairments and then just apply them to pitching mechanics right, breaking it down step-by-step right.

Speaker 2:

Step one, you know, do you? Oh, that's another thing, he had zero balance and control. You know, do you? Oh, that's another thing, he had zero balance and control. And so, step one, you know, we, we've, we've got to have balance on our drive leg right, to be able to stay there Right. We've got to be able to move down the mound athletically right and and stay closed, doing it right, creating potential energy, and then we've got to be able to rotate hip right, creating hip shoulder separation, rotate thoracic spine. And then we've got to be able to rotate hip right, creating hip shoulder separation, rotate thoracic spine, and then follow through which he had zero before right, so broke all that down. I really like the towel drill at at the end to kind of bring everything together and then, um, so we can, we can, we can really learn a lot from that. So the towel gives feedback. Right, if we're accelerating the arm too early, the towel is going to fly open. I want to. I want to pop down through whatever it is that you're going to hit.

Speaker 1:

You know, for me it's a jump box in here, right same here, or or a folding chair which makes a really good, really good popping sound and so he's, he's's done really, really well.

Speaker 2:

He's progressed amazingly. The only thing now that we're still kind of working on is he still wants to be toe dominant on on both sides, and so with that, you know, we're not getting a good lead lead leg block, because we're landing on our, on our, on our toe, and then our knee just wants to kind of keep folding forward, so we're not able to transfer that energy back up. So that's kind of our main focus right now. And even on his drive leg he just doesn't want to stay through his heel Right Because he's he's been so toe dominant for so long that we have that in the brain of like, hey, now you have the range of motion, okay, but we've, we've got to use it.

Speaker 2:

And so now we're just kind of training him to get his glutes a little bit more involved and get on that hill, block the leg a little bit more to transfer the energy back up into the arm.

Speaker 1:

You may want to try. I guess I call them reverse lunges. That's probably not the right, but getting them in a knee, you know, on a 90-90 position where he's taking a knee Right, and then have him lift off the ground one millimeter Like you know I have the catcher squats where you're lifting off you know, I do the same version with the lunge and really focusing on his foot, you know on the front foot, to keep that as he lifts off.

Speaker 1:

And then I go to the other end and have him drop only a quarter. I never do the whole motion. I have him control, like from ground up to an eighth and then down, because that's really similar.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of where pitching would be and that's sometimes that that helps with that, with that foot okay, well, next time we'll definitely try that and then, yeah, so next week we're going to um, you know, we're going to get another facility and start our throwing throwing we're going to start a throwing program five weeks after, six weeks, after he was released to throw without your intervention, my goodness.

Speaker 1:

But getting back to balance, I mean everyone laughs at my crane test for essentially a one-legged marching the Karate Kid crane. Being one-legged is such a measure of athleticism I can't even preach as to how much we are never two-legged, right, like, take a high speed camera and look at any athlete, how many times is that athlete two-legged, meaning equal weight on both feet during any type of athlete? Never, I mean they're never. You're always one-legged and you have to be able to not only balance but accelerate, more importantly, decelerate, and then balance on one leg. So many kids come in here. I can bench or I could deadlift 300 pounds, I could squat 250 pounds. Yeah, can you just stand on one leg for five seconds with your eyes closed? Zero, no chance.

Speaker 1:

So all of that power right, because they're still building power, whether it's good or bad, it's in a tank is then being applied or forced. You know, think of a nuclear reactor. Right, we got all this power. We're in chobyl. We sent it down the pipe and the pipe isn't connected. It's all over the place. Are you going to turn that reactor on? No, but that's what I see balance is such One-legged I don't even know what you want to call it Athleticism. One-legged coordination is lacking, and it's not just baseball players, it's not just not just players.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and then you're gonna love this, because I had to ask him this question. Right, there we go. So I'm asking this question because you know I would say 90 plus percent of kids especially answer this the wrong way. You gotta train, you know. I asked him this on the first day. You gotta train to train, right? You got an engine and you got a caboose.

Speaker 2:

Which one of those do you think your arm is when you throw a baseball? What do you think his answer was? Kevin? He didn't say caboose, he didn't say caboose, he said engine. Right, and so that's a big thing for me and that's a glaring thing on the first day when I'm, when I'm treating one of these kids is, you know, ask that question.

Speaker 2:

And for me is to see where their mindset is around throwing a baseball. So his mindset was I throw a baseball with my arm, and that's what he did. And so it's just taking that and getting him and getting the parents to realize that. So it's just taking that and getting him and getting the parents to realize that, no, we don't, we use our body. Ok, the arm is the is the last thing to fire when we're going downhill during that sequence. Ok. So for him that was eye opening. He's like, really, I was like, yes, right, and I'm here, let me show you Right, so we go through this this. Then I want it to fire right. And I'm here, let me show you right, so we go through this this. Then I want it to fire right, which which is why I think the towel drill is great. I know some people may not like it. I don't really know why that's?

Speaker 1:

that's because people, the people who don't like it, are not using it the way you, and I'm using it directly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah one of the things he was like. He's like no, you stay too linear. I'm like no, I, I.

Speaker 1:

I want rotation, yeah right, they don't right, they don't know what they're talking about.

Speaker 2:

I want to rotate through it, right, but that will really put that in their mind that, oh well, I can't slap that towel unless my arm's the caboose Right.

Speaker 1:

Right. So that's by far the most eye-opening thing that I've ever heard you say, and it's so true. But I like to look at things like, in common sense. There was a great golfer years ago named Hal Sutton who said the only way to be a good golfer is to hit the golf ball with your big muscles, because if you use your big muscles, you'll never choke. And what he meant by that is that if you get army right, there's not enough. I mean just, you know, here's my arm and here's the rest of me, right? So connected to my trunk are significantly larger muscles that have significantly bigger nerves, that have significantly more blood supply. Everything is bigger, right, and if you're using the small muscles to do an activity, you're not going to build muscle memory. The big muscles are going to build muscle memory much better because they're bigger, right so? But this whole cult of velocity has gotten away from using the big muscles.

Speaker 1:

That you know, Roger Clements used and Curt Schilling used, and all the guy you know, bob Gibson used and gotten away to slinging the ball. Literally, these pitchers are slinging it, drifting their whole body weight forward, and the only thing that's back there is they're building this tension and they're teaching it, and they know it's wrong, but they still continue to teach it to sling this arm. And then, you know, 75% of the people increase their velocity. The other 25% have never heard of again. They think it's a success rate. I don't, actually, but that's just the way it is. And if you listen to my last podcast I had with Chris O'Leary, you should go back and listen to it. He'll tell you right there. The people that are all into this philosophy cultists know it's wrong, know it's wrong and still teach it.

Speaker 2:

Well, and then I think you know, when you're, when you're really armed, dominant like that, you just you just open yourself up for a larger margin of error during the throw, that you just you just open yourself up for a larger margin of error during the throw, and so you're not, you're not commanding the strike zone as well, right, yeah, I mean, look at, look, look at.

Speaker 1:

Now I mean you know the world's. Just look at the world series. Guys are out of the game in four innings, right. And then you know this past world series unfortunately fernando valenzuela had passed away and they were doing a segment on it and there he was, in 1981, I believe, throwing 11 innings or 10 or 11 innings in the World Series. That's six pitchers today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so isn't it crazy? Like today, we have pitchers major league pitchers that are throwing significantly less pitches in games, significantly less, and getting hurt at a significantly higher rate. Yep, and so what do you attribute that to? I know what I attribute it to, but what do you attribute it to?

Speaker 1:

It's this whole cult to. But what are you attributed to? I it's, it's this whole, it's this whole cult. So one you know coaches in high school or college are lazy, right, like they're not going to look like greg maddox. Greg maddox, arguably the greatest pitcher of our generation, doesn't get a division one shot in today's game. Yeah, no one's looking. No one's looking at him because his number wouldn't be 92, right? So they're. These coaches are lazy, they're not looking. It's just. It's just this, you know, whatever they hit on on the radar, these other camps and clinics or showcases are pounding this button and velo doesn't matter, or velo matters way too much not getting out. I like to look at whip. I mean, that's the stat that I look at.

Speaker 1:

What's your walks and hits, right, that's the best, it's the best, and to me and which is so funny, like if you can't hit a fastball, right, so it's so like you to throw a hundred, and then on the other side, oh yeah, he can't hit 95. He can't play, he's not in the game. So you're training the pitcher to do something that if the player can't hit it he's not in the game, right? No one said I don't hear anyone saying he's having trouble with off speed pitches because no one can throw them for strikes in today's game.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think it's just completely. You know, the reason why that you're seeing pitchers throw less pitches and getting hurt more is also the way that they train and what they're being taught. Oh, absolutely, you know, max long toss weighted balls reverse pivot throws all that kind of stuff right. Max long toss weighted balls reverse pivot throws all that kind of stuff right. Um, you know that's, that's all newer stuff that really wasn't done. And say the nolan ryan error, even the pragmatics error, right. So like why? I think that you know, maybe starting now and into the near future, you're gonna see a shift back to the old thing. You know, I hope, I hope so, until you run out of.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I think what's what's going to happen is it may come down to like money, and what I mean by that is like, how are these companies insuring these contracts? Right, once that stops, right, once these companies realize well, what do you mean? His injury was caused. Well, yeah, dude, I could have told you Garrett Cole is going to blow out. Last year because he injured his elbow and he didn't change anything. Of course, he's going to have Tommy John surgery the next year. Spencer Strider didn't change anything either. Otani didn't change anything.

Speaker 1:

Why are you insuring these contracts? Why are you letting the team off? Because I'm assuming I don't know, but I'm assuming that once the insurance picks up, the Major League Ball Club doesn't have to pay that money. We're going to sign you for $80 million a year. We know you're going to get hurt. Insurance is going to pick up half of that contract and then, of course, our rates are going to get up, so we're going to put everything back on the fan. So, yeah, when you sit in the last row of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium, yeah, it is $96. And that's really what it comes down to, economics. But right now, it's not hurting anyone in the wallet, hurting anyone's major. It's not hurting anyone in the wallet and the transfer portal in college is making you know another blindfold because guys are just moving all over the place so you're not seeing.

Speaker 1:

Um, you know the injury. I mean, I had a kid a couple years ago, a year after they won the national title, coastal carolina. He was here, a kid from penn, pennsylvania. He came up to my office and his mother said the most prolific thing I'd ever heard he had. Like five or six guys on that team were down out hurt elbow, shoulder, tommy John. And I'm like, oh my God, what are they doing there? And she said, well, how do you know they didn't come there already injured? And I'm like you know, what You're right.

Speaker 1:

That's began me to think that, you know, these 18-year-old arms are really 36-year-old arms by the time they get to college and are really 45-year-old arms by the time they get to major leagues, comparatively to you know, when you and I were little kids.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 1:

And these guys are just getting, and of course again they're throwing for their high school team on a Tuesday in 35-degree weather up here and then flying on the weekend to a perfect game showcase or any kind of Nothing against them. I just don't know anyone else, but I'm sure there are others throwing as hard as they can on the weekend and coming back again and pitching on Monday.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and doing zero arm care active recovery in the meantime.

Speaker 1:

And those doing arm care and things like would make you and I cringe, because the right people aren't doing aren't in areas of where they have a say in what's happening. Because I'm sure if you and I looked at any college or major league program, 75% of the things they're doing we'd cringe at. And I've talked to Kevin Barr who was the trainer of the Florida Marlins, been on the podcast and he's like dude you would literally. He said you could never work there. They'd fire you in one day Because you'd go in and be like what the bleep are you people doing?

Speaker 2:

And I've seen it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I was a trainer of an independent team back in 2006 in national pride, where butch hopson was the this is where this became alarming to me. He was the manager great bunch of guys. But for those who don't know, like independent or all the retreads right, all the guys like I had dan reichert on the team. He was. He had pitched in the royals organization for like five or six years. I had Jeff Goetz who was a number one draft pick the same year that Reichard came out. So just looking at him, he lives in Tampa, right, he gets traded from the Marlins to the Mets in the Mike Piazza deal. Right, he gets traded. Right, and he's a lefty.

Speaker 1:

And I looked at his picture in high school of him throwing and dude talk about layback. His arm was in another county and I was like, oh my God, how did you throw like that? And he was going. He had one more AAA start and they were going to call him up Because he was like 97 as a lefty and he went out. He threw something. Didn't feel right. Make a long story short had a labral tear. Andrews did the surgery and he showed me his rehab book and shoulder shrugs and lateral raises were two of the exercises that a major league you know. At that time he got a signing bonus of like $1.9 million, which is chicken feed today, but we're talking 1997. Latto, razors and shrugs two things you would, you and I would never in a million years due to any pit ever.

Speaker 2:

Those are part of this program.

Speaker 1:

He never came back from surgery. He got released, I think. He told me he went to the Yankees. Yankees were paying him $50 thousand dollars a month just to try to get him, to see if he can come back. But he just had this like constant pain in his shoulder. I mean, I'm pretty baseball proficient. He and I would play catch dude. He'd throw me his curveball. I knew it was coming. It hit me in the shin. Every single time I could not catch it. That's the amount of movement. He had Never pitched again Independent, but even then he just couldn't do it. That's the Yankees, the Marlins. I'm looking at his book.

Speaker 2:

Like you said, we would do the exact opposite in terms of the scapula. Yeah, exact opposite, that's apparent.

Speaker 1:

I'm like no dude, you can't shrug if you can't like I. I don't know how many times I hammer home the scapula humoral rhythm like it's a law for a reason. I didn't invent it. I got a whole. I got a whole bookshelf of books right behind me to talk about it, right?

Speaker 2:

and you can't.

Speaker 1:

If you break it, you're gonna break. Yeah, and it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's the brainwashing. And those parents of this child should be grateful and whatever you charge them, it's not enough yeah, no, it's really not.

Speaker 1:

But yes, it's not enough right, and I'm not trying to be like you know, but I'm just like, like what is the actual value? Like I said to a parent like, well, what's your ultimate goal? I said well, my ultimate goal I'm not sure yours is is that your son chooses when he stops playing. It's not chosen for him. Yeah, what do you mean? I'm like know that's, I don't want him to stop pitching at 21 because it's his third surgery, right?

Speaker 2:

No, that's the mission to save a million arms, and that's that's my whole goal is really focusing on on the youth game, because I, I, I just want to help these kids be best that they can be without hurting their arm. Because what's going to happen to this 10-year-old if he didn't find somebody like me? Okay, he's going to get a throw, his arm's going to continue to hurt. He's going to get a little bit older, the growth plate's going to close, he's going to get 16. And then he's going to have Tommy John.

Speaker 1:

He's going to hate 16, and then he's going to have Tommy John, he's going to hate baseball. Yep, he's going to hate baseball and he's going to play lacrosse. And then they wonder why, well, you know, the numbers of participants of baseball are down. Well, yeah, of course they're down because the kids are getting alarmingly injured. And not just pitchers, because here's the other thing that people aren't handling People aren't handling puberty. Pitchers, because here's the other thing that people aren't handling People aren't handling puberty. I'm constantly hammering home about that. Like, yeah, we watched in August. We watched little Johnny at 5'4 in the League World Series and then he comes back to school in the fall and he's 6'4" right and no one handles that. And everything that you just went over are things you would look at the foot, the spine, you know all that stuff that no one's looking at and even even physical therapists aren't looking at it right, because they're getting the referral from the physician and it says literally elbow, and you know well and it's not.

Speaker 2:

You know about exercises and they're. They're doing what they do, but they're doing what they do, but they only know what they know and they don't know what they don't know.

Speaker 1:

So some of it you know some of its insurance problems, that, like you know, some of its laziness, like, well, you know why are you doing squat for an elbow? You know you, it goes out to get maximum reimbursement. So it's a whole, it's a whole cycle of stuff and I'm so happy I'm not in that. I'm so happy I'm not in that game anymore. Same same.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, man. So I'm excited for him and I've got. I've got three little league elbows right now, um two, two or 10 and one's 11. And I'm just thankful that I'm, you know, I get to work with them and kind of get to kind of refine their craft a little bit so that they can go play the game that they love and be a kid and enjoy the game rather than sitting out from the game.

Speaker 1:

Wow, all right, I like it Well. Thank you again, my friend, for coming on. We have to do more of these. We have to get more of the message out there that there is a solution. Arm injuries are not a rite of passage. It's not. I mean, it's just the stuff I've heard is you can't throw hard with a safe arm. Okay, it's not like you know, it's bound to happen no it doesn't have to happen, doesn't have, especially at the youth level, um where it's not a rite of passage yeah, it's so important to move correctly and, and what we do is going to improve your son or daughter to be a better athlete across the board.

Speaker 1:

You know, I tell you, know, they ask about my arm care exercise. I'm like, well, my arm care exercises are dentistry exercises, and what I mean by that. Just like the dentist, you brush your teeth twice a day. You're going to do these exercises forever to keep you healthy, and that's that's basically what it is. So, clay, how can people get in touch with you?

Speaker 2:

I love the new logo, your new office. Look at it. Oh, thanks man. Yeah, so you can find me on instagram or facebook at performance solutions rehab. Um, yeah, dm me, if you know. Even if you have any questions like hey, clay, what do you think about this?

Speaker 1:

like, I'll get back and then, obviously, you know, ask questions on on the podcast. I know I respond to as many as I can Send an email, but, yeah, any questions I don't want to. We're not going to field questions about attackers and bots. I just ignore those. Who would you?

Speaker 2:

Don't throw 95.

Speaker 1:

You're never going to get drafted. I'm not going to field those questions. Yeah, if you have any questions, and even if you're never, going to get drafted.

Speaker 2:

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna feel, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna feel those questions so, yeah, if you have any questions and even if you know, you're like hey, well, what do you think of my kids mechanics? Okay, well, just send me a video and let's go through. I mean a little fee for that, but it's. You know, right, what you need to be working on.

Speaker 1:

We can do that online easy, right yeah, uh, those showcases are never, ever, ever going to fix your mechanics that I can tell you and those. And just look at parents. Look at what you're spending for travel ball, because I'm sure this 10 year old plays travel ball. So look at the expenses of what you're playing paying in travel ball, in lessons that aren't working and showcases and then look at the results that you're getting. If, for your results, that your kid is injured, you may want to look at where your money is being spent and spend it in a place that's going to keep your kid healthy and choosing when he stops pitching, not having it chosen for him. I agree, well said.

Speaker 2:

Thanks everyone, see you next week. Thanks guys.

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Dr. Kevin John McGovern, PT

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