Velocity Rx Podcast

The Velocity Cult: Baseball's Brewing Injury Crisis

• Dr. Kevin J. McGovern, PT, CSCS and Dr. Clay Hammons, PT • Season 1 • Episode 29

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Chris O'Leary, known online as "The Pain Guy," joins Dr. Kevin McGovern to expose what they call "the velocity cult" - a dangerous trend in baseball pitching mechanics that has created an epidemic of arm injuries.

Drawing from twenty years of research, O'Leary meticulously breaks down why techniques like the "inverted W," "Tommy John twist," and what he terms "flat arm syndrome" are destroying pitchers' arms across baseball. Through compelling visual analysis of pitchers from Nolan Ryan to Justin Verlander to Spencer Strider, he demonstrates how modern pitching mechanics have shifted dramatically away from sustainable, powerful movements toward dangerous shortcuts that prioritize immediate velocity gains over career longevity.

The conversation reveals troubling industry dynamics, including how popular training programs market techniques known to cause injuries, how parents unwittingly sign injury waivers without informed consent, and how financial interests throughout baseball incentivize problematic approaches. O'Leary doesn't just identify problems - he offers clear guidance on what healthy mechanics actually look like, emphasizing that proper pitching involves using the entire body rather than generating force primarily through the arm.

For parents, coaches, and anyone concerned about the future of pitching, this episode provides rare insight into why we're seeing unprecedented rates of Tommy John surgery and what can be done to reverse this alarming trend. The solution, ironically, might involve less coaching rather than more - allowing natural, sustainable mechanics to develop rather than forcing dangerous positions that the body instinctively avoids.

Ready to help save arms and extend careers? Share this episode, subscribe to VelocityRx, and join the movement toward safer, more effective pitching mechanics.

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The Velocity Rx podcast mission is to help save one million arms by giving the very best mechanical, health, and arm care information to it's listeners.

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, this is Dr Kevin McGovern, and today is another VelocityRx podcast, and this is To Pay the Bills brought to you by VelocityRxorg. We have a new newsletter coming out, so please click on that link and check it out. And today I have an incredibly special guest. He and I have been pretty close to step-for-step on the cesspool known as Twitter for a long time now, and both of us have a lot in common. One is that we take a lot of heat from the cult that is these non-qualified, non-medically driven people who, of course, are you know, let's be honest, they're better marketers than chris and I right, they just are.

Speaker 1:

Um, you know you'll get a. You know I'm on fans or whatever the links of these. You know posts and I'll get a post, and as soon as I click it, it already has 3 000 likes, which is impossible. So we know, with AI and bots, okay, but like, if I'm on your feed and you put up a post, there's no way that 3,000 people got to it before I did and liked it. It's just impossible, all right. So, but without further ado, I have my very special guest today is Chris O'Leary, aka the pain guy. And Chris, thank you very much for coming on and I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2:

No, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. I've been pretty ghosted pretty hard, especially since I've got the Jeff Passon book right here. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:

So he went after me for six pages in that book, just lied his ass off. In that book just lied his ass off. I actually to the point where I actually consulted a lawyer to see if I could sue him about it and they didn't want. They didn't want to take it on because that was when he was with Yahoo, before ESPN. If Passit had been with ESPN that might've been a bigger deal. But yeah it's.

Speaker 2:

I've been ghosted pretty hard since 2016. You know it's. I mean it's funny. You know I've been ined pretty hard since 2016. I mean it's funny. I've been in the Freaky New Yorker in New York Magazine, in ESPN Magazine, but this was all 10 years ago or so. Sure, I think you've talked about this ESPN the magazine, their Tommy John surgery inverted W article, lindsay Barra. I talked to her for days about that and she never even mentioned my name. She used all my illustrations, but it's very frustrating.

Speaker 1:

Funny. You should mention that. Yeah, lindsay Barra spent not one, not two, not three, but four days at my facility. Okay, three, but four days at my facility. Okay, because she was dating one of my employees at the time, who will remain nameless, um, who went over all my pitching stuff, my game exam everything and, um, her boyfriend, you know, wanted some huge raise right, which in this business you got to kind of eat what you kill. I can't guarantee stuff.

Speaker 1:

He was good. He's got his own place now. Good for him, and I'm like I can't meet that. And next thing, you know, the article came out.

Speaker 1:

I think Paul Reddick was credited with a lot of stuff that I had said and not one mention was of any of my. Literally there were stuff, there were verbatim stuff that I had said was in that article and I wish I had the money to sue her and ESPN. But the good thing is, as far as I know, she's out of journalism, which she should be, and, uh, I never want to hear the name again and I feel bad.

Speaker 2:

You know the bears are a big deal in st louis, but yeah, you know she's, she's, she's playing the game and unfortunately, you know she, she is playing the game. And the game is too often played and people like you and me, who are, who know some stuff and who are trying to do the right thing, are too often shuttled aside.

Speaker 1:

So, chris, the incident of you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind and a pinball wizard to not see that the incident of Tommy John surgery, I think between the and it's funny, speaking of great marketers, between the Chicago White Sox and the New York Yankees, who both have very good marketers at the top of their food chain had, I think, combined 12 Tommy John surgeries this season already.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know, the White Sox are a disaster.

Speaker 1:

And you've talked about some of the history and you're definitely more versed on the, the history of why, and I think why is a gentleman who is from my home state of connecticut. So so, yeah, give me kind of the background because, you know, roger clemens threw hard, jr richard threw hard, kurt schilling threw hard, you know, you know, I was just yeah, I was just watching the, the world series with the the braves, their, their clothes are wallers. I mean, he was throwing 99, 100 miles an hour.

Speaker 1:

So, for people to say and I think at that point they were not measuring it back then in like 96 and 97. They were not measuring it out of the hand. That was behind home plate. So he was probably wallers could have been 102. We have no idea. So what has been the biggest shift or why? Why are we in this situation in your opinion?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I start 20 years ago with my oldest son, who was a pitcher and I didn't know anything and I knew I didn't know anything, but he was showing some promise. He had a natural sinker, a natural two-seamer and he was the kind of kid who could actually get out of an inning in four or five pitches which is should be, the, you know the goal right, yeah, it's just, you know, ground ball, the shortstop strike, ground ball, the second base strikeout, you know, that's it just nothing.

Speaker 2:

Uh, so that got me OK. If this is, if he's going to be, if he's got some promise, how do I protect him? Because when I was a kid I screwed up my shoulder, I think, trying to throw sidearm submarine, you know, quisenberry Kent to Colby, that kind of stuff, and I didn't want yeah.

Speaker 2:

I didn't want what happened to me to happen to them. I don't. I think I. I think I ended up.

Speaker 2:

Well, I actually remember the moment where probably I pulled my shoulder joint out of its socket, throwing too hard wrong, throwing submarine in the outfield, that kind of thing. I was way down, not over the, and in order to be able to play catch with my boys I've had to completely remodel my throwing motion, which is to throw more over the top. But so 20 years ago, like exactly 20 years ago, I started looking around. I saw Tom House, I saw Dr Mike Marshall and I knew about Paul Nyman, the Connecticut guy, the engineer guy. And I knew about Paul Nyman, the Connecticut guy, the engineer guy.

Speaker 2:

I didn't really like House because I could see inconsistencies between what he was preaching and what his video and what his pictures were showing, and it didn't really. I saw the inconsistencies. I saw the same thing with Nyman, and Nyman was actually worse where Nyman was claiming that Billy Wagner and Nolan Ryan moved exactly the same. And the more I looked into it, the more I found that to be really kind of an absurd idea. I ended up going with Dr Mike Marshall to start, because he was interested in injury prevention, was ostensibly interested in throwing hard, was trying to strike this balance. Marshall didn't do a good job of striking the balance in the end.

Speaker 1:

His mechanics are a little crazy, right.

Speaker 2:

And there's. You know, half of his stuff is gold and half of it is crap. But I did like the conversation that he was having, the things that he was talking about. I did end up breaking with Marshall because he just got kind of crazier and crazier and harder and harder to defend but where I really got so I ended up starting out as a Marshall guy. I just wanted to be a Dr Mike Marshall guy.

Speaker 2:

I ended up breaking with him, going out on my own and ended up taking a look at Niman, trying to understand what Niman was saying, why Niman was saying that, why it was working, why it wasn't working. You know kind of the cost-benefit. Niman was selling a free lunch with the inverted W at the time and then House picked up the inverted W, took that to Mark Pryor in particular, and 20 years ago is when Mark Pryor was looking like the next Nolan Ryan and then he would kind of fall apart. And I thought that was a good decision to look at Mark Pryor as he fell apart, as he aged, because that was with the Cubs and I'm with the Cardinals. So I'm seeing them and I'm thinking about them and oh my God, the Cubs don't have one Bob Gibson. They've got two Bob Gibsons and Mark Pryor and Kerry Wood. Are the Cardinals ever going to win another game?

Speaker 1:

Now, when you were looking at that and this inverted W, which I challenge people who are watching this to just put your arms in this position for the next 30 seconds. Okay, the UFC calls this a Kimura. Okay, this is a submission position of abduction and internal rotation, did anyone there say like, yeah, any of these. You know Dr Tom House, which is not a medical doctor.

Speaker 2:

He's a psychologist.

Speaker 1:

Psychologist, yep, mba in business, has nothing to do with with medicine. No, you know. So um, did anyone like say, yeah, you know, horizontal abduction, internal rotation of the shoulder? It's not the best starting point. Was there anything that anywhere public? Because as far as what I'm seeing, cause I got to the game late. But then all this stuff, you know, someone said I've read the oh, carrie wood or not carrie wood mark priores got perfect mechanics and I one look at this and I'm like perfectly, how like the fun, you know, it seems like baseball.

Speaker 1:

There's a negative, there's a negative result at the same time.

Speaker 2:

at the same time, a good friend of my, of mine and my son he a sheet metal worker and he was having his rotator cuff worked on and he was telling me that sheet metal workers and plumbers and pipe fitters because they're constantly working with their elbows above their heads are constantly having rotator cuff problems.

Speaker 1:

Because literally that's a direct impingement. When you go straight abduction. For many reasons I've done like. The shoulder blade doesn't turn. It's literally bone on tendon right. The body isn't. We're meant to be inside of a phone booth not out here, so continue on.

Speaker 2:

So I had House talking about all this stuff and getting all this traction. I knew that Nyman was behind the scenes. Basically, house just stole all of Nyman's stuff and just kind of went crazy with it and I couldn't deny the results. You know Billy Wagner was throwing hard, although you know by the time Billy Wagner, I think when he got out he was lights out in Houston, but then he went to like Philadelphia and he went to the Mets and everything. So if you ask about Billy Wagner you have to determine whether you're talking to an Astros fan or a Phillies. I guess he completely blew up with the Phillies. He did okay with the Mets but wasn't the same pitcher with the Astros.

Speaker 1:

His shoulder was hurt.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

It was wear and tear.

Speaker 2:

And that was the biggest problem that I had with nyman is nyman see? And so I've got an mba and was taught the basic principle of economics is that there's no free lunch, which is what I'm constantly tweeting, and all I'm doing is I'm just applying my microeconomics to baseball, and what became obvious to me was that House and Nyman were selling a free lunch or, even worse, they were selling a trick and a shortcut without disclosing the downside of that. And, to a degree, all I want is informed consent. If people can take these risks, take these chances and do so in an environment of informed consent, I don't necessarily have a problem with that.

Speaker 1:

Right, you're signing off on it.

Speaker 2:

Right, you know if they're adults. You know adults can make stupid choices, but they should be told that these are stupid choices they're making. And that brings in Kyle Boddy of Driveline, who I was talking.

Speaker 1:

When did they come on the scene? Like I said, I just got out of my old book 2006, 2007, 2008.

Speaker 2:

And kind of the scary. Well, there are a couple of things. So I helped Kyle Bod Body get healthy in 2006.

Speaker 1:

So you knew him before Driveline.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I knew him. Oh, and that was one of the reasons why he started Driveline, because I taught him the Marshall stuff. I said you should fix yourself using this, dr Mike Marshall stuff.

Speaker 1:

How did you two come together?

Speaker 2:

Just through Baseball Fever website. I was on these websites trying to get information, then eventually kind of giving out information was he a pitcher or what it was? Yeah, yeah, he pitched. He pitched in high school and he was trying to get healthy and he was a big inverted w guy and I'm like you got to stop the inverted w, you've got to pay more attention, teach, by the way, because your body, no, no little kid ever picks up a ball and gets in this position.

Speaker 1:

They throw it like a pie, right right, right, uh.

Speaker 2:

So what's what's frustrating is body actually started out driveline trying to sell duct, as, by all, body was trying to be dr mike marshall, with better marketing and less antagonistic. The problem was is that that didn't sell and Bodhi ended up going the Nyman route and ultimately, to this day, bodhi sells the ideas that got his own shoulder without informed consent, without disclosing that.

Speaker 1:

So meaning he's selling mechanisms that hurt himself?

Speaker 2:

Right, right, he knows the inverted W. I've seen your posts Right, right, he knows the inverted W.

Speaker 1:

I've seen your posts on that.

Speaker 2:

Right. He knows the inverted W hurt himself. He fixed himself by getting rid of his inverted W and now he sells it as the spiral staircase. Why it's completely unethical? Because it works. He sells it because it works and it allows him to promise and deliver velocity.

Speaker 1:

For this period of time, as opposed to career right. I mean, like you know, steven Strasberg can't feed himself because his arm is numb.

Speaker 2:

Right, and again, you know well, and the analogy I've used with a bunch of, there are a bunch of guys in DC that I've been on the radio show like 20 times and they actually get this stuff. They're in DC because of Strasberg and that's how we've connected and they actually get this stuff. They're in DC because of Strasburg and that's how we connected. And they helped me kind of clarify my ideas. You know, doing this with the high elbows hurts but it isn't necessarily bad, although it's probably bad to a degree. But the bigger problem with the high elbows thing is that then puts you in a flat arm position and it's the flat arm thing that really kind of ultimately is the problem. And it's the flat arm thing that really kind of ultimately is the problem.

Speaker 2:

You know, if you look at Nolan Ryan, if you look at Tom Seaver, you look at Bob Gibson, you look at Justin Verlander, early on, when their shoulders start to turn, their pitching arm is up, vertical, 90 degrees of external rotation, or so 75 to 90 degrees of external rotation. What's happened over the years? Well, and one of the things I noticed was that starting pitchers the Ryans, the Seavers, the Gibsons, the Verlanders their arm was up when their shoulders started to rotate, which is usually at foot plant. The thing I noticed is that guys who got hurt more the Chris Carpenters, the Adam Wainwrights, the Anthony Reyeses their arms were flatter and basically over the past 15 years arms have gotten progressively flatter to the point where now modern pitchers instead of starting with their pitching arms up, instead had their pitching arms basically flat, and that's what I call flat arm syndrome. That's a timing problem.

Speaker 1:

And I say that I'd say the thing it's late, they're late, right right, right, yep right.

Speaker 2:

You know it, and the worst part is is that that used to be recognized as a flaw, and now it's what driveline sells so they're literally selling that arm position?

Speaker 1:

that is no.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can say if you google driveline spiral staircase, you'll come across a website describing a pattern that I would call the inverted W, or the inverted L or the inverted V.

Speaker 1:

Because I had a gentleman on a couple weeks ago who started as a parent taking his little league team to driveline. Then his own kid was injured and then he's become completely. He was, you know, unaware, that's the whole. He was just uninformed. He's like, oh well, this. And then he's become completely. He was unaware, he was just uninformed. And then he's like wait a minute because nobody talks about this stuff?

Speaker 2:

because it's completely undiscussable and they don't.

Speaker 1:

Obviously I thought, with Shane Bieber going down, something would have changed, but it didn't. It continues. Here's a two time Sting Award winner goes there for a winter and doesn't pitch again.

Speaker 2:

I don't know what to say. It's really insane and it is. You know, a lot of the problem is the embargo. You know the fact that nobody will talk about this stuff In worst case. You know, Jeff Passan wrote this book. That is the most enabling thing in the world. That really just kind of the only thing I could think of is that passon, he's got a kid who plays, or at least played. This is as of 16, so approaching 10 years ago. He was playing up. The only way that kid could be competitive was to teach him the bad stuff. So basically, Jeff Passan's the arm is one big exercise in what not to do.

Speaker 2:

In reality, distortion. It's Passan defending the decisions he made with his own kid's arm and I had a conversation in August 2013. I had a conversation with Passan. We were at a baseball game, a Cardinals game. I was there filming. He happened to be passing through. This is the day that it was announced that matt harvey was going to need tommy john surgery. I've explained this all the pass into his face and I would need to say I was a little shocked when he started sending me galleys of his book and he's like here's what I'm going to say. And I'm like, jeff, not only is it a lie, you're gonna hurt people so we have this epidemic.

Speaker 1:

But now we see, you know, I know body was at cincinnati. He, whatever damage he did there, they fired him, kicked him out, threw him out. Now he's at the red sox right so I'm special advisor, which is fine because I'm a yankee fan.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay, all right, I was gonna say yeah, we have.

Speaker 1:

But we have disciples, right. We've got now I mean I'm not lying, we've got eric cressy, that at the top of the food chain for the new york yankees highest injury rate in all of baseball the Tommy John academics.

Speaker 2:

And Matt Blake with the Yankees.

Speaker 1:

And I know, blake, I tried to educate Blake, so, blake, one of my buddies, because Blake came out of what Holy Cross. So one of my buddies had a place in Natick, massachusetts, was working there, and they're like, look, you got to teach this guy how to give lessons. And that was like 10 years ago, 12 years ago. Now he's the pitching coach of the of the of the franchise that's worth the most money in history, and some one of my buddies had to teach him how to. What does he know about pitching other than he pitched right, and so the injury rate is, I mean, I, I. What I don't understand is how are insurance companies still insuring these contracts and why is it you and I and a few others not many that are saying enough and then we're shunned like oh no tread and driveline.

Speaker 1:

This is the way that you know, I mean, I know, uh, I had Jim Rooney on my podcast. And this is the way that you know, I mean, I know I had Jim Rooney on my podcast. Like he knows, he's in that area where tread is.

Speaker 1:

They tried to hire high school kids to stand in the box and they quit after a day because they were tired of getting beamed with balls. Like I don't, I don't I one year I had a Division III school like five of their pitchers are out hurt with using these weighted balls and these driveline techniques and no one is either.

Speaker 2:

they're not drawing the obvious inclusion or they don't care, I don't know what it is. I saw Ben Brewster of TRED put up a video yesterday where he was kind of talking around some of this stuff, but he did it in such a way that it was obvious that he didn't care. He was just giving it lip surface. He was talking about external rotation and how he likes the desired angle is anywhere between 30 degrees and 90 degrees. Well, 30 degrees to 90 degrees is a gigantic spread. Like I said, ask your labrum. Right, exactly, gigantic, right, you know, like I said, my, my window is 75 to 90 degrees.

Speaker 1:

I'd go no lower than 60 degrees or so anything past you know 100, which is you know anything? 110 degrees of external rotation, every degree, you are doing damage to your shoulder, irreparable damage for your shoulder to get, because 90 degrees is normal. Obviously, pitchers have more, but they have more because they have stretched out soft tissue structures.

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, and let me make a point that people may not get. We're talking about external rotation, which is kind of the up of the arm. I'm not talking about elbow flexion. I don't really care about elbow flexion. I'm not convinced that elbow flexion makes a difference whether I'm long arming or I'm short arming. So I'm short arming like a catcher, long-arming like Justin Verlander when he first came up. And I have no problem with and in my experience most kids when they first throw will tend to be long armors where the elbow is outside of 90 degrees.

Speaker 2:

My basic rule of thumb is anything but 90 degrees. I don't want 90 degrees. Yes, it's a round number, but just because it's a round number, I can make anatomical arguments about how that focuses the stress on the UCL. I either want to see short arming, like a catcher, or long arming, like Justin Verlander. And the worst part is seeing kids naturally doing the right thing and then being coached out of it doing the right thing and then being coached out of it. You know, I had to. I screwed myself up by trying to copy T'Kalvi and Quisenberry because I could do kind of crazy things with the ball. But well, and let me explain one context thing for people.

Speaker 2:

I wasn't taught anything in terms of how to throw. I remember, you know, it's the first day of baseball practice, mr Blackburn has us pair up and we just throw. Well, how do we throw? We throw, you throw by throwing. How do you throw, throw, you know. So what I would be doing is kind of a 90 degree long arm kind of arm action, very kind of standard, what you're going to see, and 80 percent of kids, just kind of naturally, as you said, generally speaking, they have to be coached into the elbow, the high elbow stuff. Uh, now, that's not universally the case. I did have a nephew who ended up doing elbow lifting despite my every best effort. I think he picked it up from his friends, basically I think his, you know, his friends said well, you'll throw harder if you lift with your elbows, you'll throw harder. And being a kid, he did that. But you know, I wasn't taught anything. And so why did I notice this stuff? Because I wasn't taught anything in terms of how to throw. So I really didn't teach my kids anything.

Speaker 2:

The only thing I taught them was to get sideways, which engages the core, basically, and now suddenly you're throwing with your core, not just your arm and that's the biggest mistake that you know. You're talking about pushing the ball or throwing like a girl. That's the biggest mistake that girl parents make is they don't get their girls sideways, because girls naturally want to face you, because in girl world that's how you interact with someone, whereas in boy world it's a little different and being sideways to someone is no big deal. But it turns out that in order to teach someone to throw, you have to get sideways to each other, because then you're throwing with your core and with your hips, not just your arm. But that's a very easy thing to fix in girls is you just have to recognize okay, yes, they're going to want to face each other, but that's not how you teach them to throw.

Speaker 2:

There's nothing inherent about being a girl, to throwing like a girl. It's just a wiring, it's a brain chemistry wiring just a. It's a, it's a wiring, it's a brain chemistry wiring thing. Well, and the analogy that I've used with some people is, in girl world, if I'm face to face with you and I'm looking exactly at you, that means you have my complete attention, that there's nothing more important to me in girl world and boy world my looking straight into your eyes for too long starts to send the message that I want to kick your ass.

Speaker 1:

You want to fight? Yeah, fight, 100% Right, you know, I agree.

Speaker 2:

So a lot of this throwing like a girl. It's not anatomical, it's not anything like that. It's just how girls Substinctual. Almost Right, it's just how girls are wired and built differently than your average girl is built and wired differently than your average boy. So you know, with a girl you just have to work harder to get her sideways to the target. But then they can just throw like completely, you know high level throws.

Speaker 1:

What's you know again? Tom Seaver, nolan Ryan these guys threw hard and I was like. Well, two reasons. Number one was many pitchers of yesterday brought their arms over their head, which meant that they didn't hold the ball in the glove. With the ball facing it, which then internally rotated your arm it was more of a handshake or even if the ball is facing them, so when it comes out of your glove, you're in a much better position.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

And then number two. Everyone's first move was down and then home like a slide. Now they have told you to.

Speaker 1:

I've literally seen people teach jumping off the mound landing and then using essentially what that does your whole center of mass is for your. You're late, like if you did it. If you did it today in augusta, you'd be shanking balls into the crowd, right, because that's a shank and your arm is just behind you and you're using the elasticity of your arm to sling it as opposed to the power of your core to drive it. And I think those are the two biggest things and they're teaches, right? You look at Clemens. I got a picture of David Cohn doing this unbelievable one-legged squat.

Speaker 2:

Right, right right.

Speaker 1:

And now they're literally teaching drift.

Speaker 2:

Oh, you need to drift.

Speaker 1:

No, you don't.

Speaker 2:

You know I mean literally teaching drift. Oh, you need to drift. No, you don't. You know I mean well, you need to.

Speaker 1:

Technically, you need to collapse your backside.

Speaker 2:

That's not happening right the good stuff is actually being labeled a flaw correct right, why you? Know, drop and drive collapse your backside. That's all the good stuff, because that engages the core and the safe stuff.

Speaker 1:

The safe stuff that will allow you to pitch and make 35 starts in a year and let me, let me make a point.

Speaker 2:

I had someone asked me this the other day. He's like okay, if I went with your ideas, how much velocity am I going to give up? I'm like, well, aroldis chapman is completely consistent with my ideas. Great.

Speaker 1:

I don't like his arm. He's got a lump, but he's on time because he sits so unbelievably, well and truly throws downhill.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, he's throwing with his whole body. He's incredibly athletic. His arm is mostly just along.

Speaker 1:

He was at 101 the other day in Boston, right, right.

Speaker 2:

I thought he put up 103 against the Cardinals.

Speaker 1:

He may have. He may have. Someone said he's still over 100.

Speaker 2:

Right. So it's that level of athleticism, the kind of thing that you saw in Tom Seaver, that you're still seeing in a role as Chapman. You used to see it in Justin Verlander. Verlander has been coached out of it and I know Brent Strom, who was the pitching coach with the Astros, that the whole time that Verlander Verlander has been coached out of it and you know, I know Brent Strom, who is the pitching coach with the Astros, at the whole time that Verlander was making the changes to try to stay healthy and that actually led to his Tommy John surgery. I was sending emails to Strom saying, brent, this is a terrible idea. I was sending him all these pictures, I'm sending all these historical precedents, but somebody some, you know Ron Wolferth and the driveline guys got in Verlander's ear and screwed up a generational arm.

Speaker 1:

Wolferth is the Texas Ranch guy right.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

He's the Texas baseball ranch guy I've got a. Well, now that you said his name, ben Bills, who's on my YouTube, went there, left for the present, didn't pitch his entire high school and actually three people told me needed Tommy John. So I taught him literally how to pitch without a UCL and only one school kept his scholarship so he was able to pitch in college without. But yeah, he left there after the three days with a tone at ucl yeah, it's.

Speaker 2:

I mean, wolferth is really. You know, he used to be a decent conditioning guy but he's moved into the mechanic stuff and he's just teaching the same. He's teaching the niman stuff, he's teaching you know, the driveline stuff it's. It's all one big cabal of people just kind of screwing up arms so you're a parent, I'm a parent.

Speaker 1:

How come parents are like, dude, hey, my kid just left your camp or my kid's doing your thing, and are they not seeing that the training is causing? Like, I don't. This is what. This is the disconnect I don't understand.

Speaker 2:

Well, all right, here's all right. Here's one problem that I've seen in hitting. So I had huge success hitting with Harris-Stowe State University and I've worked with major leaguers Tommy Pham, mark Trumbo, andres Torres, who won a ring with the Giants.

Speaker 1:

And just had a game-winning single against my Yankees.

Speaker 2:

Although he would have put that ball out if he had stuck with my.

Speaker 1:

It was probably three degrees then, but yeah, okay. Yeah, I just missed going out.

Speaker 2:

But the problem is that too many people have a short-term mindset, and that's the biggest thing. And then to the point I was going to make with hitting coaches. I see, particularly in hitting, too many people are focused on not getting fired rather than teaching the best stuff. And the way to guarantee or to not get sued, the way to virtually guarantee you're not going to get fired and not get sued is to teach what everybody teaches, because then you've got plausible deniability.

Speaker 1:

Because everybody's doing it. Right, even though literally, it's the wrong thing, right, and why do I?

Speaker 2:

teach it, Because everybody teaches it. You know what am I going to teach Some crazy Nolan Ryan stuff now. So now things have completely turned and we who are teaching the classic stuff are on the outside and the safe bet is to actually teach the crap.

Speaker 1:

because the safe from the perspective of not losing your job If you're Matt Blake, safe from the perspective of not getting sued if you're a PT and you're in your kind of capacity, uh it's funny that you said that that because someone put up about I don't know I think you might have been involved they put up about injury way from like I don't, I don't have an injury like you're doing my. There's no injury waiver at velocity rx, I wouldn't even like. That's just. My job is I'm a physical therapist is to not harm Like I. If I, if I gave someone an injury waiver, I'd be laughed. I'd be, I'd be laughed at.

Speaker 1:

So these kids are literally signing injury waivers. Hello.

Speaker 2:

And it's. You know it's, it's a cultural thing. You know there's a, there's a lack of patience and really, you know, people have asked me, you know the the only reason nobody's going to be a justin verlander primarily is a lack of patience, because justin verlander didn't become jv until the second year of pro ball and I saw him talking about velocity in some little clip right.

Speaker 2:

I mean he threw hard in high school but he didn't really. He didn't put it all together until his second year of pro ball. He was very good in college, but you know, in college you know he was playing at Old Dominion. It's not like he's playing the SEC, that kind of stuff. You know you can just kind of kill people, you know. The problem is is that too many people don't have the patience, aren't willing to work hard enough, and it's kind of funny. I've turned into that crotchety old man from the 70s where there are no shortcuts Right right, there are no shortcuts.

Speaker 2:

If someone tells you there's a shortcut, they are lying. They're lying too, and what we are seeing in baseball is a product of a culture of shortcuts, a fixation on tricks and shortcuts, and that's why pitchers can't stay healthy, because people don't have the patience. And my heart goes out to speaking about Roger Clemens and Matt Harvey. I actually met Matt Harvey's dad in 2009, came to me for an evaluation looking for the inverted W, and I didn't see the inverted W in Matt Harvey.

Speaker 1:

The problem is that he was still shrugging because he had thoracic outlets. He had TOS, right, Right, he took a rib out which is like, oh my God.

Speaker 2:

And fundamentally, he was taught the Tommy John twist. I've looked at that video that Ed Harvey sent me and I didn't see Matt Harvey twisting on that. But at some point someone taught Matt Harvey the Tommy John twist, which is the cue to point the ball at center field or second base. And so the combination of the shrugging and the Tommy John twist, that's what led to.

Speaker 1:

Matt Harvey and I sent countless emails because he was with the Mets, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm like dude. He needs scapular depression work. He doesn't need you to go and take out his first rib. Are you insane? He's never going to pitch again. And guess what? He never really pitched again.

Speaker 2:

Well, let me go through. I've got a few. Yeah, you got some slides.

Speaker 1:

Let's hear some. Oh, one question before we get there. So you said cult, so one of my friends had to. He and I are always talking about we study cults, like we need to start a cult because it's there's a lot of money in cults right a hell of a lot of money in cult is this chase for velocity a cult? Yes it meets all the definitions right brain, Brainwashing money. It meets every single definition.

Speaker 1:

Can't change their minds. Like it's unbelievable. It meets of the top 10 reasons or top 10 characteristics of a cult. The velocity chase is a cult.

Speaker 2:

No, absolutely. I mean, I've called it the cult of velocity, and this includes the medical doctors, the surgeons, who are cutting on these people, and it's really very kind of simple they're making money.

Speaker 1:

James Anders has his own plane. They're making money. They're making money.

Speaker 2:

And they're the savior. For a while, James Anders was the savior of baseball. You'd hear his name mentioned every week on ESPN. Talk about an ego boost.

Speaker 1:

Is it Fisig, felsig, flesig, flesig? He just came out with something about saying that heavy balls are okay. Someone said to me I'm like someone got to him.

Speaker 2:

It's like what do you mean?

Speaker 1:

I'm like follow the money, go look at his account, get a forensic accountant, investigate him. The money go look at his account, get a forensic accountant, investigate him somebody. There's no way that that guy would have said three years ago that plyo, balls are okay. Someone got to him guaranteed obviously someone got to him.

Speaker 2:

It's probably with with andrews winding his stuff down. You know, because flysig was working with andrews and Andrews winding his stuff down. Flysig has to find a new revenue source. Flysig was Andrews' biomechanics guy and now that Andrews is out of things, FlySig has to. He's chasing the money just like everybody else.

Speaker 1:

All right, so you got some slides. Let me just show you the Matt Harvey thing brought this to mind.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so you got some slides. Let me just show you. The Matt Harvey thing brought this to mind. Okay, so you're Seeing this.

Speaker 1:

Yep absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I mean. So these are pictures that I've collected Kind of over the years.

Speaker 1:

So this is Verlander.

Speaker 2:

Right, this is.

Speaker 1:

And also, even with this, I think he's still. He's got a lot of mass forward at that position still, but his arm is up, but it's. You don't like to see that, do you?

Speaker 2:

So one of the things that I say about Verlander is copy Tiger's era Reeboks wearing Verlander. Look at the shoes Yep, these are Under Armour. Yep, so we know that this is later Verlander.

Speaker 2:

Look at the shoes. Yep, these are Under Armour. Yep, so we know that this is later Verlander. This is 15, 16, 17, not 2012 best player in baseball, verlander. Oh, so there's a reason why I say that, because so this is actually. This is Justin Verlander, post Ron Wolferth and post the core muscle problems and all the stuff that Verlander had. Now, some of it was Kate Upton.

Speaker 2:

When you're dating freaking Kate Upton, obviously that's going to be a little distracting and you're going to get out of your routine, but I think what happened is Verlander got out of his routine and he went to Wolferth to try to help him, and Wolferth, instead of helping him, screwed him up, and so you're seeing some evidence of this, although so this picture's post-Wolferth, because I don't like this photo at all. Yeah, no, this is post-Wolferth. It's not the greatest picture that I have. I've got a better picture that I'll show you. Well, this is one of my favorites of Verlander and you can actually see he's more back in this kind of a picture, 100% Right.

Speaker 2:

And then I found this one I found just the other day, which is the same thing, and again. So look at the shoes Yep, reeboks, reeboks. So this is pre-Wolfe, this is pre-Wolfe Verlander.

Speaker 1:

Much better position. I mean the gloves. You know the glove side, being up that high, is still, you know, firing his upper traps, but this is a much better position.

Speaker 2:

Right. And so you know Verlander was my model and this is. You know I'm looking at. You know this is the Mariano Rivera cue of using your front elbow as a gun sight. There's very little scap loading here. It was this angle of Justin Verlander that convinced me that a lot of Nyman's stuff on scap loading was nonsense, Because, at a minimum, it's not necessary to throwing hard Because, verlander, there's very little scap load here. There's maybe 10 to 15 degrees, and a lot of that is just kind of incidental.

Speaker 1:

So when you say scap loading, define that for me.

Speaker 2:

Scap loading I define as the distance of the throwing arm side elbow and the glove side elbow behind the plane of the shoulders.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so I would define it right. So this is how words get us. So to me, scap loading is downward depression and inward rotation of the shoulder blades in that scapular depressed position. So there's. There's two different definitions of of something, because I think you know if you're in and tucked, that's going to give you more more of a more of an, but that term, right there, needs to be.

Speaker 1:

We need a, we need a, an avatar definition of that term, because I thought that's what people meant, but that's not how I would define talking about two different things. But go on, that's a good point.

Speaker 2:

Well, and I would, you know it, and there's a. There's a difference between where you're doing your and it. It. My shoulder barks whenever I do this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can't even look at it, right, it's such a bad position.

Speaker 2:

There's a difference between this position, which is roughly where Verlander is, and this position, which is where you're getting into Mark Pryor territory where the elbows. You know, here my elbows are below the level of the shoulders by you know. You know 10, 15 degrees or so. This is a. This is a normal kind of punching position and you think about throwing a punch. This is where you would throw a punch from. The problem is the modern stuff where you get all trappy and the elbows are getting high and you know it's literally a.

Speaker 1:

It's literally a mechanical impingement, because when, just when you do straight horizontal abduction, your shoulder blade doesn't follow the scapular humeral rhythm, it doesn't turn out of the way and you're literally bone on tendon.

Speaker 2:

You're crushing a super spinatus tendon and your labrum well, and I and I could feel it whenever I do this.

Speaker 1:

I just tell people I'm like just keep your arm there for 10 seconds and tell me if you think that's a good position. Then we'll start there.

Speaker 2:

But so Verlander taught me a lot of stuff in terms of moving. Here's another kind of the same angle. This is 16. This is under armor. This is a pretty good position. This is that Mariano Rivera kind of gun side position.

Speaker 1:

I like the right elbow being almost at the level of his numbers. That means that upper trap is less engaged which is good.

Speaker 2:

Right, he's down here, which is a stronger position.

Speaker 1:

Much stronger.

Speaker 2:

Right, you can still punch from down here. Absolutely you can.

Speaker 1:

You know uh that's a good picture yeah, well, and so let me compare.

Speaker 2:

So this is nolan ryan. This is nolan ryan with the angels, when he's really moving his best. Uh, the foot's almost down, the arms almost up you know this is deep.

Speaker 1:

Look how. Look how low and deep and powerful right.

Speaker 2:

Look at his legs right look at his.

Speaker 1:

Look at it. I mean, even you can look at his jersey. There's very little crimping right, so there's almost no upper trap engagement and he's not at this 140 degrees of external rotation he may be at. He may be arguably at 100 and that might be a lot right with this. You know these layback people. Oh, you need, you know, 50 degrees of layback. Yeah, okay, sure you do.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, layback is one of the things I look for to see whether I think a guy is really in trouble or immediately in trouble. You know the more. The more the layback, the the greater the risk he's in here's just here's just a comparison of verlander and ryan moving in the same basic pattern. You know there's there's a glove side elbow difference there, but that's not necessarily consequential. And I think I think verland, there's a glove side elbow difference there, but that's not necessarily consequential.

Speaker 1:

And I think Verlander's a little ahead. You know he's a little bit out. Ryan's center of mass is probably as he's in a lunge he's centered.

Speaker 2:

Right, and again, this is post-Wolferth Verlander, so this is not a perfect Verlander. This is perfect Verlander. So this is not a perfect Verlander. No, this is perfect Verlander, where he's much more back. Yep, now this is getting into. So why did Verlander break with the Mets? Well, this is the smoking gun. Right here you can see the Tommy John twist.

Speaker 1:

That's so bad right there, yeah, no.

Speaker 2:

Where he's got his fingers. Basically, his fingers are between the ball and his head, so he's pointing the ball at second base or center field. So this is you know why. Why didn't verlander kill with the mets?

Speaker 1:

this is why center mass is forward, but he's up, he's, he's, he's, he's higher off the ground here so he's's not even engaging his glutes at all. Now, this is a great picture.

Speaker 2:

I just picked these up. I'm just picking these up off the internet. And here's another kind of thing with Verlander, where essentially he's trying to create velocity out of his arm rather than out of his body, and I've got another picture I don't have it up, but I've got others that I'll show that show that kind of Chapman doing that.

Speaker 1:

These are great Chris.

Speaker 2:

Right. But this is Verlander kind of internally rotating and pronating, and he's trying to. This is a trick and a shortcut where he's trying to create velocity with his arm because he's not moving as efficiently, he's not getting into his core, he's not getting into his legs not moving as efficiently, he's not getting into his core, he's not getting into his legs.

Speaker 1:

You know, he's not getting. Has to be the I say my friend, the arm has to be the caboose. It can never be the engine yeah, uh.

Speaker 2:

And then this is berlander. This year, this is spring training and again you've got the same kind of tommy john twist kind of thing and I just I'd be surprised if berlander makes it through the year effective or intact. Another comparison with Nolan Ryan late era Nolan Ryan the front foot is almost down the pitching arm is almost up.

Speaker 1:

His arm isn't even in 90 degrees of external rotation. Look at that Right, because if it was, I think it would be more even. That's fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Right. So he's in this 75 to 90 degree window, which is why he lasted. So then, this is Shelby Miller. Shelby Miller is one of the people who helped me see both the Tommy John twist and why the Tommy John twist is problematic. You can just see. You know his thumb is down and he's in a really awkward difficult position and his leg and the other thing is, you know, house teaches us of dragging your back leg right when you turn your if we go from the next frame and you turn instinctively your body.

Speaker 1:

Your body wants to walk right it wants to turn and bring that leg forward and when you anchor it or drag it, it's again putting more. It's a counterintuitive force on the on the arm. Well, and you're, you're killing the hips, which it's again putting more. It's a counterintuitive force on the arm.

Speaker 2:

Well, and you're killing the hips, which forces you to get more out of the arm, and the arm's just not up to it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%, you know. And then here's oh gee, who's this Right?

Speaker 2:

this is Shelby Miller again.

Speaker 1:

Look at that position.

Speaker 2:

This is the Tommy John twist this is actually Grayson Rodriguez also. This is why I don't have faith in Grayson Rodriguez, because you've got this Tommy John twist leading to minimal external rotation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So why didn't Shelby Miller turn into what people thought he would be? This is why this is the smoking gun right here.

Speaker 1:

So again, you and I are looking at these and being like, yeah, that's wrong. That's wrong and the fix is literally meaning not instantaneously, there's no free lunch, but it's so simple.

Speaker 2:

Again. I'm going to go back to my why are they allowing this to happen? Well, and one thing I will say, because people are always asking me how do you fix this stuff? And the fact is, a lot of this stuff is really hard to fix. Once it's in, it's really hard to get out.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it takes.

Speaker 2:

I mean like literally thousands of reps, Intentional reps, which a lot of kids they just don't have, the they don't have.

Speaker 1:

I mean a lot of kids can't squat correctly. I mean I looked at at, oh you know, oh I deadlift you know 300 guy comes in, he loses, like the form of his low back, it's, it's a whole epidemic. It's not just a pitching coach, it's, it's a human movement as well. Um, that's just being taught. Well, and let me go through a few more of these.

Speaker 2:

You know this is so. This is actually one of the frustrating parts. To the point of our conversations with with journalists. I actually was approached by I think it was New York Magazine in 2013. They were doing a puff piece on Matt Harvey and they wanted to know why Matt Harvey was so awesome. So I gave them a few things, but then at the end of it I'm like oh, by the way, he's not going to stay healthy If you look at this picture of Matt Harvey.

Speaker 2:

I'm not convinced he's going to stay healthy because his arm you know he's pronating and, as a result, his arm isn't getting up. His arm is like 45 to 60 degrees short of where it should be if he wanted to last. So I actually sent that email to the guy and he never, and I said I'm really concerned about Matt Harvey's injury risk. And he never got back to me.

Speaker 1:

Nope, it didn't fit the narrative, I guess. No, no, it's that was we don't, we don't fit the narrative.

Speaker 2:

That was one of the more frustrating emails and the worst part is to get back to pass and Jeff pass. And I sent that email to Jeff pass and I said listen, I was warning people on Harvey and Passon in his book. The Arm had the gall to say that I completely missed on Harvey, which was just a complete lie. Passon just lies his ass off. He's a liar. It's terrible. That's too bad. A few more pictures. So this is the guy named Trevor Clifton. This is the picture that allowed me to see flat arm syndrome. That allowed me to see that pitchers had really kind of made the move from 90 degrees of external rotation or up to minimal external rotation, and this is a very common position now.

Speaker 1:

If you want to understand why the epidemic is happening.

Speaker 2:

It's because the vast majority of pitchers are throwing from this position. Now, this is, if you want to understand why the epidemic is happening is because the vast majority of pitchers are throwing from this position, which you know within the Washington DC guys. Uh, the analogy is running a car engine past the red line. Yes, this will allow you to throw harder, it will give you more stretch in the shoulder capsule, you know. But there's, there's a reason why cars have red lines, correct? Uh, shohei otani. I don't have any faith in his ability to get healthy you know, I mean, just look at his.

Speaker 1:

I mean his stride length just is way too long. There's no way that he can effectively turn his core their flat arm right if over-engaged upper traps anchored back leg Right.

Speaker 2:

If the stride length is too long, you're going to lock up your hips, and then you have to, and then you, in order to throw hard, you have to do this. These kinds of tricks and shortcuts.

Speaker 1:

And that's literally a medical principle called the length-tension relationship of a muscle. Like my, bicep is really strong here, right Because?

Speaker 2:

it's short.

Speaker 1:

It's not strong here. So when you stretch out beyond the ability of a muscle to contract, you're going to hurt yourself.

Speaker 2:

Right. So I don't have any faith. I love Otani as a hitter. I don't have any faith.

Speaker 1:

Stay a hitter man, just stay a hitter, absolutely. You know again.

Speaker 2:

Mark Pryor. Oh God, but the you know again, mark. Pryor you know, but the problem with Mark Pryor isn't the inverted W, the problem with Mark Pryor is that his inverted W put him in this flat arm position. You know, you see the same basic flat arm position here and you know, and you could see it in Otani too. Otani's is the result of the Tommy John twist, pryor is the results of the inverted W. Strasburg, you know, another inverted W leading to flat arm position, kind of pitcher. But this is fundamental.

Speaker 1:

And leading to thoracic outlets. So bad.

Speaker 2:

Because he's so trappy. He's just. This is just. This is a mess, but the frustrating part is that Kyle Boddy of Driveline is teaching this is a mess, and but the the frustrating part is that kyle body of driveline is teaching this stuff yep teaching this to this day spencer, strider, strider in this standard flat arm position.

Speaker 2:

You know this is. This is what happened to strider. I have very little faith in his ability to to last because he's already had a second tommy john surgery. One interesting thing about strider is that he was an inverted W guy at Auburn and somebody did try to fix him but essentially they took him from an inverted W position to a flat W position and never really fixed his timing. And Strider is an example of this is a guy who had the intention of getting better, I think, and he wasn't able to achieve it just because once the movement pattern is in there, it's in there.

Speaker 1:

It's in there. It really is. Wow, that's a really bad picture.

Speaker 2:

Kumar Rocker. I don't have a lot of faith in you know he's kind of a combination of the inverted W the Tommy John twist flat arm syndrome. Jacob deGrom Tommy John twist flat arm syndrome. You know, jacob deGrom, tommy John Twist Flat Arm Syndrome. I don't have a lot of faith in the Rangers. I don't think the Rangers know what they're seeing. He can't stay healthy either.

Speaker 1:

Those are great, chris. Thank you, those are awesome.

Speaker 2:

No, I appreciate you're forcing me to get my act together and put that little presentation together.

Speaker 1:

I like that. So, chris, how do I can sit here? And you know I could probably talk for days, but that doesn't mean anyone's going to listen after an hour. So how do people get in touch with you? What are you doing now to help pitchers? Give me a blurb of that, so people well, I'm on chris o'learycom.

Speaker 2:

I tweet at the pain guy. I'm still on twitter, despite all my misgivings. Yeah, I'm a conservative and I'm very concerned about what's going on. I can make a very powerful argument for conservatism and Trump ain't it?

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, You're definitely not a pro-Trump guy and all that. I think a lot of this comes down to if you don't know what you're doing, don't teach kids anything Because I managed to throw pretty well and most of the kids that I know throw pretty well because I just didn't do anything. You know, they naturally long-armed, they naturally got the arm up. If you were going to do anything with a kid, it's to fix the glove side. You know. Teach them to keep the glove side elbow up, to fold the elbow, the glove side elbow, like Verlander does. None of this pulling stuff. The pulling stuff is a lot of the driveline stuff that used to be a flaw called flying open and now driveline sells it as positive disconnection when in doubt. Don't teach anything.

Speaker 1:

Don't teach.

Speaker 2:

Just get a kid sideways. Really, all you have to do to teach a kid to throw is to fix their feet. Make sure they're getting sideways With girls. You have to pay a little more attention to that, because girls want to face head on. Boys are a little more okay with throwing sideways, which I think is why boys throw. You know naturally throw a little bit better than girls, but it's. There's nothing fundamental going on there, it's just. It's. It's how they're wired Right.

Speaker 1:

Right, I like that.

Speaker 2:

So you know it's, but it's, it's very frustrating. What I'm trying to do is I'm is, to a degree, I'm abandoning the high end because those guys are already broken and there's very little that you can do. I'm kind of retrenching and going back to the youth level and trying to focus on teaching throwing correctly. Don't teach the tommy john twist, you know, point the ball at third base. Uh, rather than, instead of doing this whole twisty kind of thing, just do what's natural, which is, for a right-handed pitcher, pointing the ball at third base. And really, fundamentally, you don't have to teach that. Kids will just naturally do that.

Speaker 2:

That's the frustrating part is a lot of these kids, as you have said, are being coached into this bad stuff and frankly it's really hard for someone, even like you, who knows what they're doing, to coach them out of it, because most kids they just don't know their bodies that well, correct they don't.

Speaker 1:

They don't. Well, kids don't. Like I said, I'm gonna drive down the road here. There's a bunch of fields kids don't play anymore, right? So they don't go out and learn movements like. We played all kinds of sports, did all kinds of pickup things, but kids are, you know, with phone right and have all these video games. They don't learn fundamental movement. And then we try to add athletic movement on top of that and it's really a recipe for disaster.

Speaker 2:

No, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Well, Chris, thank you so much for coming on. We definitely have to do this again and I appreciate your time and for all those listening. Please like and subscribe this. It helps to get the word out. Help me save 1 million arms. Help Chris save 10 million arms. But something's got to be done because what's happening now ain't working. Get out of the cult. It's a cult, Trust us. Thanks for listening, Thank you.

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Dr. Kevin John McGovern, PT

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