Velocity Rx Podcast

Arm Care Unleashed: Insights on Overcoming Baseball Injuries w/ Jason Colleran #27

• Dr. Kevin J. McGovern, PT, CSCS • Season 1 • Episode 27

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Step into the world of professional baseball with this engaging episode that tackles the pressing issue of injury prevention. We dive deep into the alarming rates of injuries plaguing Major League Baseball and what it means for players, teams, and fans. With expert Jason Collin joining our hosts, we uncover shocking insights into the current state of player health management. Why can teams riddled with injury not find effective solutions despite employing countless specialists? This episode challenges listeners to rethink everything they know about training, arm care, and injury prevention. 

Explore the innovative Kinetic Arm, which offers potential relief for pitchers by stabilizing their shoulders and promoting better mechanics. We also discuss how outdated assessment processes and flawed methodologies leave players vulnerable to re-injury. From personal anecdotes to expert analysis, our guests invite listeners to reflect on accountability in professional sports and the importance of holistic approaches to athletic training. Join us for this eye-opening dialogue as we seek practical solutions to keep our athletes healthy and performing at their best. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review!

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The Velocity Rx podcast mission is to help save one million arms by giving the very best mechanical, health, and arm care information to it's listeners.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Hey everybody, this is Dr Kevin McGovern and it's another Velocity RX podcast. Yes, I'm wearing a Yankee hat, it's the 28th day of February and I'm in memoriam, I guess that's the word used. Why? Because my favorite Bronx Bombers who just appeared in the World Series have four incredible injuries already. In February, two potential 40-man roster pitchers went down on back-to-back days with Tommy John injuries and have already had Tommy John surgery Scott Efros coming off of Tommy John surgery and a lumbar disectomy through one pitch and blew out his hamstring and could be out for who knows. And then, the only reason why the Yankees weren't swept in the World Series, giancarlo Stanton, after having three months off, has bilateral tennis elbow for those who don't know, it's right here at the top of the forearm so bad that he can't pick up a bat. How is that possible? Well, maybe today we're going to get some answers.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

I have a returning guest, a good friend of mine, who we met on social media a few years ago, battling the nut the craziness that is pitching instruction, the craziness that is pitching instruction. And he is the inventor of an unbelievable product to protect the shoulder and the arm that helps stabilize the shoulder. He will go into more of how and the why, the kinetic arm. And today I am happy to have with me my friend, jason Collin. Jason, thank you for coming on. I know you're very busy. This kinetic arm thing is going through the roof, as it should, because it's a great product to prevent these incredible amounts of layback that I see that's destroying arms. But thank you for coming on. How are you?

Jason Colleran:

Good. Thank you very much for having me and thanks for the praise and accolades. It's been a tough road, as you know, battling a sport where everyone seems to be an expert, yet the injury rate isn't going down Lots of experts, tons of experts, tons of experts. Results yeah, I'd love to touch on that as well.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

This is a free-form Friday. We can touch on anything you want that as well.

Jason Colleran:

This is a free-form Friday. We can touch on anything you want, so I haven't been keeping up, but they've already. The Yankees have had two elbows blow out already.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Yes, and well, that's actually a low number. I mean there was, you know that's, you know they are, you know I can name, I mean I can name them. The Yankees have had, you know, I think, three, if not four, position players who have had Tommy John surgery. Yes, so two elbows, two minor league guys who might have made the 40-man roster gone, and then of course, scott Efros, who's pitched like nine innings with them total, you know, has back surgery. Coming back from Tommy John and back surgery and blows a hamstring Now where does the hamstring tendon? Oh yeah, from Tommy John and back surgery and blows a hamstring. Now where does the hamstring tendon? Oh yeah, the pelvis.

Jason Colleran:

So immediately right then and there that tells me that there's a muscle imbalance that was not corrected. What say you? A hundred percent and I think you know, to frame this up for those that aren't familiar with the staff that these I don't know multi-million dollar, billion dollar organization, bill, dollar, billion dollar organizations have Billion, billion, no billion.

Jason Colleran:

Multi-billion dollar. So it seems like, from what I've seen on some websites, and I know we just looked at one, if you have two dozen medical professionals clinicians, experts, strength coaches, medical directors how are we not preventing preventable injuries? Medical directors, how are we not preventing preventable injuries? At what point? So it? You know they like to. You know I'm on some email lists for a couple and they have their, not to say they have the temerity, to send out invites for their injury prevention courses. But why are you inviting me to buy your injury prevention course when you're the head of a program and you have these many injuries happening? How does that make sense?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

it's? It's crazy. Like you know, I, I I had a foray into professional baseball in 2006, my me and two of my guys, my facility, we became the trainers therapists for the now defunct Nashua Pride, an independent team. So when you have lower-level teams, it's a workers' comp injury, right. So in the 96 game now these guys are already hurt, these guys have already come from release from ball.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

The stuff that I got this is when I really started to to to ramp up the velocity RX program. I'd be like, oh yeah, yes, do you have the? You've got the Indians training manual, You've got the brave trick. You know, let me see it, bring it in. And they bring it in. You know, first I'd see the lateral raise, right, I'm like, oh my god, no wonder you never came back. Like the stuff that was in that training manual was like shocking to me. Like, oh my god, you're actually, you know shoulder shrugs, you're doing this. So we literally in in the spring you know there's not much spring training but literally went through only body weight exercises, core stuff, dynamic warm-up, scapular depression, squats, putting in basic, fundamental movement.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

I think and there's a general manager whose name is Chris Hall. He's on LinkedIn. You can ask him. But I think in the 96 games there were four injuries that we had to fill at workers' comp for them Four and that I think it might be less. But these guys, jason, why can't? I don't get it. I don't get it, like even in football. Like you know, I've been playing fantasy football and back. They got me back in after you know to have a running back or a receiver pull a hamstring, like in game two. What are we doing?

Jason Colleran:

well, the. What's interesting to me is and I, I, um, you know, after baseball I probably mentioned it on the previous podcast, but you know helping stroke victims regain function they haven't had in a decade. Helping traumatic brain injuries walk again that we're told they never walk again, and my brother was one of them. So that's where I really got to apply my skill set. But you know, having these kids come in with arm pain, which led to I've got to solve this problem and offload stress externally.

Jason Colleran:

But going past that, I have these patients that are referred to me and you know I'm I'm not medical, so they're not my patients, but they're patients from orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists and and some of these athletes. You know they've had Tommy John or labrum repair and they come to me. They've been cleared to throw. You know they're on the same throwing progression program. That's probably from 1989. And they come in and here's here's the most-blowing part, and this is what I want all the listeners to hear. When they come to me I'll say did they look at your trunk? They say no. Did they look at your hip? No. Did they look at your foot and ankle foot function?

Jason Colleran:

And they say no. So why are they not looking at the mechanisms that cause this injury or this re-injury? And you know, I think it was last year, we were going back and forth about a player who had his third Tommy John surgery. Every person who was a part of that and he had, you know, a shirt on repping that company absolutely failed him. And these organizations that have, you know, multiple injuries, re-injuries, they're 100% failing them. But at what point are they going to step back and say, okay, what we're doing is not working?

Jason Colleran:

And unfortunately, you know, I had a college coach come in, Wes Timmons, he's at Shorter University, that you know great program there. He was with the Braves minor league system for I think a decade and he stepped out and he called, I think a coach, with two coaches with different organizations, said hey, this assessment was just done, here's this product. And they said, yeah, but we've got new arms coming in every year. So I just don't understand where's the accountability? But on the on the practitioner side and on the strength and conditioning side, it, it blows my mind.

Jason Colleran:

They're still doing these heavy, symmetrically loaded lifts. And there's a popular place where I've had a couple of athletes come train with me and they were training there and they said, well, why isn't he doing this? And I said, well, he doesn't understand resistance mechanics. Because if you're not training for rotational power and even that pelvic shift, but if you're not backing up and doing an assessment with your athlete before you start to apply force, you fail. So for these teams, how do you have two dozen on that staff and not a single one has that skill set necessary to identify those injury indicators before it becomes a problem?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Before it becomes a problem. Yeah, yeah, and you know, like, so we talk about that three time Tommy John person who's still advertising for that company and guess what, they're still making money, right, because another part of this equation we talk about the player and the coach is the parent, right? So if you hired a painter and you hired him three times to paint your front door and you came home and it was the wrong color or it wasn't painted or it was a dent, do you go with that painter?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Like I don't get it like, like when someone says I like when someone says this is my third tommy john surgery, immediately stop that ad and run somewhere else. You don't want to go there. You want to say this guy saved me from my third tommy john surgery. But it's almost like a rite of passage. It's like a metal like well, you know it's like. And then, like you know, yesterday, in preparation for this, uh, I had a father send me a video. He's like you've got to help this kid. I'm referring him to you.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

A very nationally known organization took this video and this is you know where his layback was. We saw it was 190 degrees. Showed right up there, lit up and they're like this is great and just for those playing at home, the external rotation normal of a shoulder is 90. Pitchers have more than that, but 190 um, that is a tap out in the mma. Right, that's a kimura. We can get you in there. As you know, being a jujitsu black belt, we can get you in there. And you know I'm going to make you tap. But they're ringing the bell that this was good, this was good. And I looked at that and I'm like his next pitch could be a labral tear. The next pitch, what say you?

Jason Colleran:

And the thing about that the next pitch.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

What say you? And the thing about that you saw. You saw the video.

Jason Colleran:

You saw the video right because you're like, oh my god, what is this? And I actually just had a great conversation with an orthopedic surgeon in another state that, um, you know he wanted to learn more about the kinetic arm. So I said you know we were talking about that and he said you know that I think I brought it up first. I said, well, as you know you, if athletes had played, if they pitched at the high school level, and then probably most throwers at the collegiate level have some degree of a labral tear, and he said, absolutely, and that's what allows them to get back there. So that structural damage that they have is what's allowing them to get there. And then they want more. And the way that I put this into perspective for parents or anyone that tries to question the kinetic arm and layback, I say wait a second. We know that peak stress happens at max external and layback as you go into the acceleration phase. So if you know that in this range you have the most stress and now you want to further tear down that tissue to have greater stress in a greater range, it's an absolute recipe for disaster. But I think for a lot of these parents and coaches it's just kind of confirmation bias, they just want to go with historical continuity. And well, this is how we've always done it. And it's like, yeah, and look at what always happens, the injury rate keeps going up. So the you know. And also, if we think about just you know, basic mechanics, I've never seen the back of a hand go down and hit their hamstring or hit them on the butt. So at some point mechanically it doesn't make sense to have more range. It's like if you're slinging a string in a rope, you know it's going to be pretty much perpendicular, so to try to get all the way back past, that is just ridiculous.

Jason Colleran:

But these programs that are, you know, they're selling, they're selling you on range of motion. And to me I always say what good is that range if neurologically you can't control it? So it should be. What is the available range of, you know, contractile length? Or where can you actually sustain a contraction in that range? Because that's what truly matters.

Jason Colleran:

And then we look at some of these programs where they just do like dyno testing in certain positions. So if we think about gross force output, you have no idea. So think about like a orchestra, right, you've got all these instruments playing and you have no idea unless you go through and listen to each one or test each muscle or position you know one by one. And not to say that you can test one muscle at a time, you'd have to Botox everything else Not realistic. But if you can put one in a more shortened position and see whether or not it has the biomotor control or neurological integrity depending on what term you learn through what school but if they can't sustain a positional contraction, then there's a problem. So why are we trying to get more range when we know that's the dangerous position? That's the question that parents and athletes need to start asking.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Well, a follow-up to that. So let's go back. So a follow-up to that. Those are the people who believe that the arm generates velocity, believe that the arm generates velocity, and that goes against every martial art principle on the planet. That goes against every neurological principle on the planet. The power comes from the core. The arm needs to be the caboose. So I'm going to read you a famous quote from you in relation to well, talking about that, guy, guy, and then we're going to get into this. You're one of the very few people I've seen who understands the concept of getting the center of mass over or in front of the front foot to utilize the trunk and gravity assisting in pulling the arm through. Everyone else wants this, wants the longest stride, without any logic behind them. So to the layperson, break that down to what that means. To me that means throw last. Like I say that the last thing's got to come is our arm, right.

Jason Colleran:

So if we break it down, if we think about a hitter, if we've got their legs all the way spread out, we're limiting motion that they should be getting at the foot, the lower leg, the hips, the trunk, and it's going to limit that range where they can produce power. So there's a point of diminishing return with stride length. So what I've seen from a lot of pitching coaches in a lot of places you know that, say they train pitchers, you know some even have them like jumping out, some have them striding out as far as they can. And I was working with a pitching instructor great guy, you know. He came in to, you know, check out the kinetic arm, brought a softball player and he had her doing kind of the rocker drill and he had her foot externally rotated and the front foot was facing forward and he said why do you think she doesn't have that range? And I said, watch this. I rotated her back foot, so now we're not blocking off that hip. And all of a sudden he said, oh my gosh, I had no idea. Now she has so much more range of motion. So when we're looking at, you know, stride length and things like that, how efficient are we truly being because if, if we don't have like we talk about that athletic stance if you don't have a good base of support, you're not going to be able to generate that power. And anyone that wants to argue that, I ask them stand on ice and show me how much power you can generate, exactly Okay. So first we need friction that's kind of why we wear cleats, right, or spikes so we can dig into the ground and utilize that to start to generate that power.

Jason Colleran:

Along those same lines, I had a pitcher who's in Vandy, you know, pumping a hundred. Then he was with the Rome Braves, I think he was struggling to hit 90. So he comes in. He's had multiple lat tears, rotator cuff strains, um, you know all kinds of injuries and, uh, you know. So I go through just basic injury assessment. You know injury history and uh, he didn't mention it, but I said when's the last time you rolled your ankle? He said, oh, yeah, a couple years ago.

Jason Colleran:

I said, okay, so he can't hold any positional contraction with his foot and lower leg. So the fact that he can't even it's's. You're essentially in a sandpit trying to generate ground reaction force. So if you can't get that bag of bones to turn into a rigid lever like pronation supination. Then how do you expect to utilize everything from the ground up and everything that's not working, or every degree of motion lost, starting from the ground? You're going to try to make up for that up the chain, which precisely explains why he has all these upper extremity injuries.

Jason Colleran:

So guess what we address that. You know he had limited trunk rotation to his throwing side, which nobody looked at. He's, he's back up in the major leagues now pumping up close to 100. I think I haven't kept up, but I'm not saying I'm the one that fixed that and got him there. I'm just saying, um, it's interesting that you interesting that you know that's what we found, that's what we addressed, and he's got his his. Uh, you know homework to do with the, the positional isometrics, to make sure everything's tuned up. But, yeah, with what you're saying, it there's no understanding of being mechanically efficient. And what muscles can we use to do that job? So, to have the, the elementary thought process of, the faster we can get your foot in that release point closer to home plate, the better. No, there's a point of diminishing return. But just like you, had in that video.

Jason Colleran:

If they can get their center mass over, or close to over, that front foot and use their trunk to generate more force, guess what? That's less that the arm has to make up for.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Exactly. So lots to unpack there, folks. So let's just show. So everyone makes fun of my crane, my karate kid. You know the one-legged march that I do fast speed, slow speed, eyes open, eyes closed, forward, backwards, because, as an athlete, we're never two-footed, ever Very, very, very, very rarely. Okay, like we're always. Especially rotation, we're rotating around a stable post, which is, you know, our front leg or back leg, whatever we're doing. So, yes, the ankle matters. So this goes back to the orchestra that you just the example, right? So we have these dynamometer programs, right? The dynamometer has been around since Christ was a carpenter. Okay, it just measures force output.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

However, however, if you're testing rotator cuff strength lying on a plinth up against a wall, that doesn't involve your foot, that doesn't involve your knee, your hip, your pelvis, so why does that matter, kevin? Okay, so we have the violinist who's in Boston Symphony Hall. We're going to put her out there with just herself and play. Okay, that's going to make one sound. Now we're going to fill it with people. That's going to make another sound. Then we're going to take her and we're going to put her in the hallway. That's going to be another sound, and then we're going to put her in a closet. Four different sounds. So if you're not measuring strength in a functional position as they are hitting whatever you're doing, a disservice Like this was.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

This was like I go back to. You know, I got into physical therapy because I tore my my ACL back in 86 and I had growth plates Right. They didn't, so I just took the meniscus out and I didn't get the acl repaired to 97. But if you did the standard, sit on the plinth and do a knee extension, you know I could kick you across the room. That doesn't mean I can go down a stair with one leg, right lower closed chain. That doesn't mean playing basketball. I ever landed on that right foot. I didn't trust it right.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So, position of the body does even just the foot, put an orthotic in somebody test their strength? It's dramatically different. So these, these things that light up, oh, or you know, arm strength, it's all this, it's all that. Well, we're a human body that has loads of systems and, yes, your big toe planting in the ground will affect your arm strength, and I can prove it live, can you right? I mean, that's just how I see these and I'm like, okay yeah, so he can resist internal rotation up against the wall, okay.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Well, how's the alignment of his lumbopelvic joint? Because if that's out of alignment, or his glutes or his piriformis muscle is tight, he's not going to have the same strength.

Jason Colleran:

What say you? And even some of those testing positions. You know it's really. It's really like saying you have an art class and they come in and you give them a box of crayons and some construction paper. You know it's and some construction paper. There's no precision.

Jason Colleran:

So let's say I'm doing a test where I'm pushing back. Why would we not at least isolate this axis from lateral to medial to find out how that true strength is into external rotation? Really, we're looking at horizontal abduction, external rotation. There's probably some degree of thoracic extension rotation. So if I am doing some manual muscle testing, we will use the table just to take gravity out of the equation for the lower extremity to identify where they're having some either compensations or adaptations. And people are quick to jump to oh, they're compensating.

Jason Colleran:

If you keep, you know, putting a demand for force output in a certain range, it's probably going to tighten up because the brain senses, okay, there's constant, constant, you know, stimulus there. I need to make that adaptation to keep it tight and tight as stable. So I'll start there for the lower extremity. But as far as you know the upper extremity same thing. Okay, know the upper extremity, same thing. Um, okay, great, let's say we do all that, whatever arm strength test. Well, guess what, as soon as you turn your head and I don't know if these people know that, but you don't pitch like this you probably have cervical rotation. So if you were to do something as simple as test those positions in cervical rotation, you'd get a whole new set of data points. But they don't even have that basic elementary thought process. And that's what blows my mind. And then, okay, let's. And again, you know I've had some instructors and you know we kind of laugh and say there's nothing magical about the table, there's nothing magical about it. Sometimes we'll do it seated, you know, sometimes we'll do it standing. But there's so many ways you can do those tests. But at the end of the day, when we look at gross force output meaning just pushing with everything that's available you have no idea neurologically what's available at that time. So what muscles are compensating? So let's say you've got a job.

Jason Colleran:

Well, we'll take baseball, for example. You got nine players out on the field. Well, if two of them aren't able to participate and they're on the bench because there's muscle inhibition and the brain knows, okay, these guys have to work harder because if I keep pushing those there's going to be an injury, there's going to be breakdown. Well, it's not the guys on the bench that are going to get injured, it's the ones that are out there making up for two players not being on the field. So there's, there's so many variables that aren't taken into account and really there's there's no precision in it and I'm going to say I don't see any value in it.

Jason Colleran:

But, like you're saying, dynamometers have been around for a long time. I've used them just to illustrate, um, like with teacher man's ridiculous, you know, just show. And, of course, uh, you know all the, all the people that don't understand. They're like well, that's not hitting. I said in the beginning of the video, I'm just showing you positional force output. I'm not saying anything about hitting, but it's, you know, social media. That's a whole other conversation.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

It's easy, you know it's a tool, right, it's a tool. It's like biofeedback, but, like you just said, turning your head right. It said turning your head right, that turns your spine. So I am very spine oriented, right, I believe that that's the foundation of our movement. I always try to tell people listen, you have to be Matt. Who is Matt? Well, matt's the guy at your front door with no arms and no legs, right, these guys grow on at the end.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So, what I mean by neurodevelopment, right, we all know. If we've got kids, you came home and they're like here, I'm pregnant, what did you see? You saw a little amoeba looking thing with a head and a spinal cord. Right, that's, that's how the body develops and that's how it has to move from proximal to distal, from the spine out. And if it doesn't, it's, you're gonna. You, you're gonna have, you're gonna have issues.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

And then when you rotate that spine or you bend that spine or you extend that spine, it is going to change the position of the nerves, which is it's like it's like kind of going to your the fuse box of of your house and, like you know, bending a wire. God forbid, you know, I don't recommend doing that, but you know what's going to be the electricity output. It's going to change. Your lights are going to flicker right. Same thing. The body works the same way and I don't understand, first of all as an adolescent, if you're going to a place that's not clearing your spine and you're doing a strength and conditioning program and they're not clearing your spine. I mean I see these like on social media. You know they're taking these water bags and they're whipping them around. I'm just like, oh my god, was, was this guy's the? The damage that you're doing to people's facet joint. I mean I can't, I just cringe and people this is the greatest exercise ever.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Prove it. Are they stronger after guarantee?

Jason Colleran:

they're not and that um. You just brought up a um with the electrical analogy with the you know, with with the dynamometer testing. They're more concerned with how bright the bulb is and they don't know if the switches work. So if you don't know if those switches work and you've got other wires taking on more of that current, yeah, something's going to blow.

Jason Colleran:

But as far as the people talking about the water bags and that training, so just inertia and objects, resistance to change. So I'll. I'll use the example. You know, when parents come in and say if I place a five pound weight on your foot or if I drop it from shoulder height on your foot, it's the same, right? Oh no, what do you mean? Why is it not the same? Of course you know we have this thing called gravity. So if we say, you know, force equals mass, times, acceleration, if we've got a water bag here, all the mass is already down here. So as we're rotating through, the mass is just shifting, but it's not resistance.

Jason Colleran:

And then at end range, again you mentioned the facet joints which, for those that aren't familiar, we've got. You know, if they were shaped like this we get a lot of rotation. If they're more oriented up and down, you don't get as much rotation. So the damage we're doing there is because at end range again, muscle strength is like a bell curve. So mid range we're the strongest, end range it drops off. That's why you know us older folks if you rotate and go down to pick up a sock, that's when you hurt your back. You're not chasing down a terrorist in the airport or anything exciting like that. It was something simple but you were at end range performing a simple task. So the fact that you have all of that water and all of that load crashing in the position where you're the weakest and with the musculoskeletal system, it's a recipe for disaster.

Jason Colleran:

And the people that are doing it again it's new and shiny. I call them fishing lures. You know it's kind of like dumb fish. Dumb fish are just going to jump and bite at some shiny thing going through the water and they have no idea why it works or how it works. But you know there's a lot of pieces of equipment like that. But you know, if you hold up a water bag and let it go, it falls straight down. Same thing with a kettlebell, a medicine ball, a dumbbell. I think the entire industry as a whole is severely lacking the knowledge of basic resistance mechanics. I used to think that this is going to hurt some feelings. I'm okay with that. We can hop on a podcast and have it hurt some feelings.

Jason Colleran:

I'm okay with that. Like the, we can hop on a, we can hop on a podcast and have it out anytime. I have no problem with that. But you know, you hear the CSCS and that's kind of the standard. And then some of these guys with RSCC. I saw one guy. I actually got kicked out of this Facebook group for correcting him. He said that pushups are dangerous for kids and this, and this guy's worked with big league teams. It's an incredibly stupid way to speak in absolutes with applying force Push-ups. What's your angle?

Jason Colleran:

Yeah, if they're done like this yeah, If you're doing them like that, yeah, you've already got impingement. But if we're stopping at 90 degrees, but guess what? What if we modified that? Got impingement. But if we're stopping at 90 degrees, but guess what? What if we modified that? So how does the way we can apply force, utilizing gravity and the mass of our body, what if we had them do it on a bench?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

or a wall.

Jason Colleran:

There's so many ways you can do a push-up, or on stairs right, so to have the highest level and the pinnacle of all certifications strength and conditioning related and you don't have the common sense or independent thought process to not make blanket statements like that and speak in absolutes. It's incredibly disappointing, but this is, this is the level of um, you know, expertise. I guess we can call it to be nice that these big league, these big league guys have so um, you know, it's not a wonder why these injuries are happening. But again, let's say they're all great at what they do.

Jason Colleran:

I met with a professional organization down in Florida and I stood before them and said look, did you have arm injuries last year? Yeah, did you have them the year before? Yeah, I said then all we have to discuss is how many sleeves and what size. I said because either you're terrible at what you do, and that's why these injuries are happening, or you're all great at what you do, and that's why these injuries are happening, or you're all great at what you do and it's time to offload stress externally. But with that entire staff and I don't know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in technology and they use the dynamometers, why are they still having these injuries year after year? That's a failure.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

A thousand percent. And recently I think you saw that there was some major league study that came out, this 65-page thing. They could have called me for five seconds like, yeah, this is why. But here's the thing and all these things. I see Andrews Institute, mustard. I see all these things, these studies. I never see a study that said this is how we corrected it. Never see those Like we see oh, this, this oh this, this stress, this stress.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

And like for Shohei Ota, like him, dislike him, hate the Dodgers, like the Dodgers. Them, dislike them, hate the dodgers, like the dodgers. For him to tear an ulnar collateral ligament twice to me is a fireable offense across every person who touched him. Okay, like his handlers in jail now for stealing money, but nothing was done mechanic-wise okay. So I had a kid. Come to me, you'll be watching this podcast.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

His father came to a national camp came up to the New England area, I think in Foxborough, massachusetts. You can look it up. It won't take you too hard to figure out who it was. And Shohei Otani was the poster boy for mechanics. How could you do that? He's a two-time loser, right like what. What are we doing? What are I? Don't get what we're doing.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

And then you know, when I talk drop and drive, you know I got a picture of david cone and this unbelievable like one-legged squat. I mean the guy. Everyone's asking me well, who's the guy? Who's the guy out there now? Like I hate his arm path. I think it's too long. But Aroldis Chapman has the best drop and drive that I have seen and that is the only reason he is staying healthy Because, like you said, it changes.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

It changes your timing to drop and drive compared to the drift forward. Like his arm path is really long and he gets into all these things. But because he dropped so, so much his timing is so is good that he doesn't accelerate his arm until it's a gravity assisted position and that is the only reason he stayed healthy. Because I believe it's that first move and that is what I think has dramatically changed over the last 25 years. Now that first move is like you explained we're going to jump to home plate, we're going to drift, we're going to whatever you go back, you go. Look at Tom Seaver, nolan Ryan, roger Clements, curt Schilling, david Cohn Vertical, like down the slide, vertical and then out, and that sets up for better timing.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Now they're drifting, taking the arm out of their glove early and now you've got to put it somewhere. And it's here, it's here, it's here, and then the hips turn and we'll set up and then you get this. Okay, this is what you get. Okay, that is, I got that picture. Now this is a guy who, unfortunately, elected that he. He thought that was okay, dad thought that that was okay. So for those listening in their car, I'm showing a kid who's got so much external rotation that his forearm, I would say from this picture, is parallel to the ground. There's no way that kid's shoulder is healthy doing this, no way, and he's 10. His career is over. I'm sure this picture is one of the motivations of why you invented the kinetic sleeve to help us.

Jason Colleran:

Correct, absolutely, because, as we get into again, muscle-stabilized joints. So mid-range were the strongest, end-range were the weakest and, as you can see— oh, and by the way you can—let's look—that's actually a scientific law.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Oh, and, by the way you can look, that's actually a scientific law. So, jason isn't, isn't? So that's called the. This is a the Irish Massachusetts in me. I'm going to say this slowly Length tension relationship of the muscle. You can look that up Bicep much stronger here than it is here, scientific, proven, kinesiological fact. Go ahead.

Jason Colleran:

If muscle stabilized joints and I always ask you know who can go all the way into external rotation actively, that they do, like in that slow-mo picture, and they can't. So if that's a passive range, that's the goal of the kinetic arm is, if we're going to those passive ranges and we can't stabilize it internally, clearly because the injury data shows that, why would we not reinforce that externally? To me it just makes sense. But backing up to one of your points, for the dads out there and some of the beginning pitching instructors, if we look at some of the old guys that threw like a Nolan Ryan, and so an example is if you're sitting at a, you know waiting to make a left turn and you've got, you know, the blinking green light and there's traffic, if you're sitting there at a dead stop and you hit the gas, you got inertia and object resistance to change, so it's a little more, it's harder to accelerate. But if you've got a rolling start and you hit the gas, you can accelerate faster Right. So it seems like it would be less stress on all the components and your neck obviously. But if we look at some of the old timers like the Nolan Ryans and we see and there's some guys that are incredibly efficient now that do it with the leg kick and the way they're already redirecting that force towards the plate versus just starting from the stretch and then cranking on everything. If you've got that momentum going, it's going to be a lot less stressful on the body. So that's something you know for the, the, the dads that are trying to teach pitching and some of the younger pitching coaches Um, and I get it, you gotta be fast to the plate. But, um, you know there's, there's gotta be a happy medium there. But again, for longevity, um, trying to trying to constantly get more range of motion. And then, if we think about just basic musculoskeletal function in the way our body's made and brad thorpe from isofit he gives an incredible explanation on this so if we keep stretching and stretching, and stretching and we let's say we do get more length, which one percent length in in tissue is called what Strain or sprain, depending on tendon or ligament. So that's what we're ultimately. That's their goal is to strain or sprain things, right. So let's say we do get more motion from that tissue. Well, if the joint isn't designed to handle that well, now we've created these micro instabilities.

Jason Colleran:

And guess what? How does a micro instability at one joint affect one at the other joint? So if we think about, like the seated 90-90 hip stretch, I've got some pictures of you know hip sockets or acetabulums One's facing this way and the other one's facing you know kind of this way. So these instructors and these you know high level guys, they're not even looking at these structural differences and deviations because, again, structure dictates function.

Jason Colleran:

I've had a $200 million quarterback in my office and some high-level MLB pitchers and there are some that they struggle to get to just neutral, a neutral position. Then they're saying some of these programs that they have to have a certain amount of hip internal rotation. Well, you just failed. And when you have them, do the seated 90-90 and force that and they're not even close to getting to that actively or passively. Now you just probably are going to tear their hip labrum. But again, if we create those micro instabilities, how does that affect every joint down the line all the way to where we release that baseball, even if we have, I just don't like saying, scapular dyskinesis, it just sounds way too big. It's an anterior tilt and we're trying to get you know that layback versus this Correct.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So you know it's funny, you just mentioned that. I mean in my game test. I've got two specific tests that measure To me. For me, my purpose is the most important movement of the shoulder, which I think is the initial movement, is the scapular humeral rhythm, which is a three to two or one to one ratio, depending on you know what source you look at, but essentially for every three degrees you elevate your arm, your shoulder blade has got to depress and turn like a boat and every kid on the planet, because they're on their phone all day, have shrugged shoulders and as soon as that upper trap fires, it's a sandbag man, it's over, it's, and you know that's why this whole inverted w it's so upper trap dominant, which is literally I fight, and not just pitchers, but every shoulder patient, stroke patient. You know like you have the flexion contracture, I'm fighting it daily.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

And then I see lateral raises, shoulder shrugs, as, as I see, band exercises where they're doing you know I call it the direct in traffic. They're doing all this and I'm just seeing. All I see is all my brain sees. Is this shrug, shrug, shrug, shrug, shrug the exact opposite movement that we need to train pitchers. What say you?

Jason Colleran:

And when I, when I see the, like you said, the people getting tangled up in the bands, I always back up and you know, if people they want to take a hard stance and really, again, people are more concerned with proving what they believe to be true than actually learning the truth. Um which makes it bingo which makes it even tougher in baseball. But again, jim rooney.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Jim rooney said that exact same thing to me when I was on the spot. People, are so concerned about, he said, being right than getting it right, which I think is brilliant yep, even if we look at band exercises and like we just talked about, I'm not saying band exercises are bad, it's the application thereof what is, but what is the goal?

Jason Colleran:

that's what nobody stops to think about. That's exactly right. Flipping your limbs around, we're not accomplishing anything. We could be very precise with them. But if we think, the further you stretch a band, the more tension, right, so we could take a dyno and hook it up. If we're at 10 pounds of you know force here, it could be 15, 20 out there. So when we go into external rotation and again we're in the weakest position for our body and now we have the most tension in that range, it makes no sense because then when we get to here, the moment arm drops off, but we still have a range where we could train it to external rotation. So that's actually something that we've got in the works right now. That'll be a lot more precise. And I, you know, I think band work should become obsolete when we have these new devices, because they're they're very simple but they're very precise. But again, we're just repeating.

Jason Colleran:

Well, this is how my coach did it and this is how their coach did it, and there's a reason. They didn't make it to the next level and there's a reason. A lot of these guys get to the next level and break down, and I've been in some of these camps and facilities and some of the things I've seen. You just have to kind of shake your head and wonder how is how is that going on here with this much money at stake? But the the unfortunate thing is I met with a travel ball coach years ago and somehow I've you know, I've taught for plenty of PTs and orthos and organizations and so well, I was talking about stretching and how it can cause muscle inhibition and impingement and again, it's a the dosage determines the poison or it's a dose response issue. So if we're aggressive with it we can do a lot of harm. Um, and he said, well, I don't know about that, we've got a, we've got a program from this college and, um, it was just interesting to hear him perpetuate that ignorance with such confidence, um, that it was mind blowing. And I thought, okay, this is.

Jason Colleran:

That was when I was kind of getting back into baseball and I thought, wow, this is what I'm going to have to communicate with it's. It's incredible, but to me, if you have one arm go out, that's a failure. And what, what major league baseball. Back to that report you talked about circle back a couple of topics, but how many years of research do we have? How many thousands of research papers do we have where all they're doing is just looking at something and stating what they see? Where's the actionable information? And I saw in one of their bios they say they've dedicated all these years of their life to preventing arm injuries. You failed, you're still failing and you will continue to fail.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

What's the recipe to fix it? I already know it's wrong and it.

Jason Colleran:

But why are they even? What's the point of even doing these studies? I saw one recently. It said um, if you're older, you're throwing harder and you're throwing more the tissue you're going to get injured. No way, thank you, captain, obvious no way I gotta.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

What's that? Let's write that down. Yeah, exactly, master of the known.

Jason Colleran:

Yeah thanks, what right. But I mean, what's the what's the point of that? And you know some of these people and I've seen some uh, I'm gonna be nice and just call them trash papers, where it's. You know that there's a multitude of variables that aren't accounted for and some of them let's say we took 10 healthy athletes what was your assessment process's? My question, because I bet if you go through, there's a lot of injury indicators they didn't even know to account for. So really, I'm just going to ask what is the point of all this research if there's no actionable information?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Exactly. That's why they write and people it's not an accident that they write these research papers in barely understandable English, that you just fast forward and look at the conclusion, ok, but spend some time, pull it apart and challenge, just ask the very simple question why, why and how? Right, and you will find holes in many of these papers. Okay, and they write them with all these like sophisticated language that even I look at. What? What are you? This word salads, like? What are you saying to cover up the fact that they left out a control group? Or you know, I know that there was a, there was a plyo ball study. You know, up on the east coast that guys were hurt. Or you know, like, if you're comparing, just simple, just look at this. You're comparing baseball pitchers. Okay, there are not two human beings on the planet that are the same size and shape. Right there, your study is gone. Right, because you're not comparing apples to apples. Now, golf, on the other hand, realized this long ago and they created Iron Byron, which is a mechanical golf swing with the great Byron Nelson. So it has balls, clubs, grooves, because it's the same repeatable swing over and over again, repeatable swing over and over again, and until baseball has a pitching avatar, right where everyone agrees this should be here, here, here, here, and we make that using either AI or something mechanical. You're going to have flaws in the studies because I'm 6'3 with a 50-inch chest. I'm not sure, jason, how tall you are, but we're different. Our arm slot's going to be different. Your legs might be stronger.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So, to compare pitchers oh, we had 39 college athletes. This was the best I'd saw. A mutual friend of ours. They looked at a study. They had elite pitchers. Okay, well, what made them elite? Did they throw over 90? What made them? Did they bench 250 pounds? No, they played baseball. I think it was. They played baseball on a travel ball level. Oh, so that makes them elite. Okay, and that's why one of the reasons we have so many injuries. So, making a good segue. So, looking at my favorite New York Yankee baseball team on their on their website, in addition to the 40 players, they have got coaches Before that.

Jason Colleran:

just adding to what you're saying about the studies and the inconsistencies and the lack of unaccounted for variables, what, what instructors and you know, in the fitness industry too, I see these massive failures With every client that walks into these gyms. When, let's say, you have a pitcher in a lab or you're working with a young athlete or any athlete you have to take into consideration, they're not always going to function the same. So if they slept, let's say, on their shoulder, like this, or they had more workload, so if I have an athlete, come in. I've had world champions in multiple sports.

Jason Colleran:

What did you do this morning? Did you train yesterday? Are you training this afternoon? Are you hydrated? Is anything tight or sore? How are you feeling in general? Because if I don't have that information to make better informed decisions, that's a failure. So what these research groups need to understand is the brain is going to orchestrate the most efficient solution for that movement based on what's available at that time, and if they're not looking at that, throw the paper in the trash, that's really a point, just throw it in the trash because that's going to change.

Jason Colleran:

And guess what? If they were there an hour before that and you did an assessment and then they did some workout or, you know, went and ate or laid down, that could also change. You know, it could change. There could be now muscle inhibition or some neurological insufficiencies that they don't even know to look for. So you know all that, all that time and money wasted when we could be working on actionable solutions yeah, yeah, no, but let's, let's stop the nonsense about injury.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Okay, let's just say every pitcher can get injured from every walk of life. Let's work on actionable solutions that truly work and are measurable, and you can prove it live. That's it, and there's not too many people on the planet doing that. So great point, jason. That's why you're the smartest dude on the planet. So, going to my favorite New York Yankee team, who will not make the World Series this year Because now that they have a slow-pitch softball team of guys, they refuse to play the young players, anyway. So I'm going to take out the dietician, even to play the young players, anyway. So I'm going to take out the dietician, even though nutrition probably has a huge, you know, but I'm just going to take the dietician out.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

There are 10 people on the list of management that would handle, essentially, musculoskeletal function 10. That doesn't include underlings 10. Jason, musculoskeletal function 10. That doesn't include underlings 10. Jason, the new york yankees are worth. I don't know. Let's, let's look, we'll ask google how much, how much the yankees are worth while you look this question up, all these major league teams have all of this money, all of this personnel, everything, video, high speed, this, that the other thing why is the injury rate continue to rise every single year? And before you answer that and I just told you a story before we went on the air that I watched the 1978 playoff game and it's in my on to my office last Friday and everyone's like oh, the Bucky did a home run.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

No, that's not the most important thing to me as a pitching instructor. The most important thing to me as a physical therapist and pitching instructor is that Mr Mike Torres, pitching for the Red Sox, was making his 36th start of the year and Cy Young, the winner, ron Guidry, was making his 35th start of the year. Those numbers are just never going to be seen again. Why?

Jason Colleran:

It's a I think there's a combination of things. But if we talk about it at the organizational level, if I'm running a company and I've invested a lot in those assets and I've got a team that can't utilize those assets towards that ultimate end goal, which is winning clean house, Maybe let's say they are qualified and it's something as basic as communication, and it's it. Maybe let's say they are qualified and it's something as basic as communication If those athletes aren't enough of a priority, enough of a priority to get all those specialists in one room and figure out how they're going to come up with a plan, execute. And then there also needs to be accountability. On the accountability piece, If you have that many injuries, you got to go, but to not fix the problem, um, you know, year after year, and we can look at, you know the amount of money lost or innings lost, but ultimately you know it's it's injuries that are.

Jason Colleran:

They're unnecessary. Now are we going to have athletes that break down that could be out of our control? Yes, but to have this many out of our control with, with those levels of education and, um, you, you know, licenses, like we talked about before the call, it's absolutely ridiculous. So either, in my opinion, they're not asking the right questions and they're not looking in the right places.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So give me an example. That's a great, that's a good point. What would you so if you went to any? You went to any you're down in. You went to the Braves. You went in clean slate. What is the first thing you would do if you had a clean slate to start over? What would you do First thing?

Jason Colleran:

First thing I would do is I would establish some systems and processes to perform a basic series of neuromuscular tests. So we'd look at active, we'd look at passive, and that is important because if we don't know how much you have active versus passive, we have to think okay, so these, let's say, you go to you know, a massage therapist I'm not ripping on them but okay, this is tight. Well, instead of beating the crap out of it and like I know some therapists do too instead of beating the crap out of that tissue, why not step back and think why is that tight? So, again, we can look at compensation versus adaptation, but ultimately, what is causing that? That neurological protective mechanism that is your brain telling your body. We probably shouldn't go into that range because it's overworked or there's some kind of instability. So, I think, having just a basic thought process there, and then maybe they have too many people who overvalue their skill set. And then again, what did this practitioner do? What did this practitioner do? And as you get down the line, did one of them potentially undo the good work that another one put in? So, like you say, prove it live. I think I would have a firing squad. I would give them each an athlete and say I want to see your assessment process and your treatment protocol, and for me I would, you know you could do some positional strength tests. But ultimately, if you don't have any checks and balances there, then how are you ever going to have a system of accountability? Because it's kind of like okay, here's the treatment room, you know, go nuts. And I think that's a big reason why these athletes are trying to outsource with these social media experts that we look at. And, again, you know you can buy followers. It's not a it's, you know it's, unfortunately it's a popularity contest.

Jason Colleran:

But one thing I've said since getting back into baseball and getting these injured athletes from these specialists when they couldn't figure out the problem just because they've gotten to the top of the hill first or they've been there the longest, it does not mean they belong there. So if we look at I think Joe Lemire wrote the article about Gary McCoy he had the only injury-free season on record soft tissue injury-free season, 100% on record and I think it was with the Taiwan or Chinese national baseball team. So why would they not go to Gary and say hey, gary, can you repeat this a thousand times over? How did you make that happen and I've spoken to Gary about it and I'd feel more confident asking his permission to disclose some of those encounters. But why would you not go to someone who's done that? But again, if your team can't do that, get another team.

Jason Colleran:

So that's another reason why the kinetic arm comes in handy is because if we can use this to offload stress externally and better manage the acute and chronic workload, or for practitioners like PTs, now you have an entry point into progressive loading.

Jason Colleran:

So instead of you're cleared to throw and then you get out there and they're throwing darts, well, if we can redirect those stresses and give them a more efficient environment to function in and offload that stress at end range, where they're more vulnerable, now we can start to ramp them up and not only can we offload stress from the arm, but in the process of doing that we can build their muscular endurance up from the ground up. So that way, even if they're not wearing it I think the statistic was you're 36% more likely to get injured if you're fatigued. Now, I don't know where that number came from, I don't know what their measurement of fatigue is, but it's pretty significant. So we know that we have something to offload stress externally, so why would we not utilize it until they attempt to fix the problem, which we hope they will attempt to do?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

A thousand percent. So if I had the same opportunity, I would go in and rebuild the building right? I always tell people that high-level movement athleticism is in the penthouse of a 20-story building and I think injury is being caused by no one has a good parking garage, no one has a good fundamental set of movements lunge, squat, you know, scapular depression, proper spinal movement and they're trying to perform high level movements in the penthouse and the body just the body just will not, will not handle it. You know, and I see these. You know let's ring the bell with the water bags, let's.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

You know watching someone on social media Olympic lift, and you know they're doing squats and deadlifts and they're losing their lordosis of their back, it's flattening out or it's rounding and I'm just like, oh my God, these guys are getting getting hurt. They don't have and I'll just, you know, watch like, even like you're watching pregame NFL, I'll watch guys. You know those are doing those sideline reporting. You know doing dynamic warmup. You know bringing their knees or chest rolling over, hunching over Like dude. If you're going to do something, let's do it every single time, because practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. Do it right, do the movement right every time, every time, and you will have a much. And that means every movement. That means your dynamic warmup, whatever it is. Just do the movement like it's designed to do and you will be a healthier athlete. Just start with that.

Jason Colleran:

Yeah, and I think better getting the athletes to understand too. Here's, here's the goal of this movement or this exercise or training this way. And if we look at a lot of um, a lot of the nonsense with these hitting instructors and certainly these throwing instructors, if you were to ask them what is the goal of this exercise or this drill I mean the word salads and the fumbling and jumbling that you would get is pretty ridiculous. So you know, for my clients you know even the highest level guys, or if I've got, you know, a PT that's a client or an ortho I'll say, hey, I want you to ask me as many questions as possible, because there's never something I'm going to do that doesn't have a specific purpose. I tell them I want you to ask me the hardest damn questions that you can think of so you're fully confident in what we're doing and you stick to that process without thinking. I got to get lightning in a bottle. I didn't gain 10 miles per hour in one day. I got to go to this guy that's you know online because he's got a big Instagram following. I got to go to this guy that's you know online because he's got a big Instagram following. So it's building that trust. So I think that's probably where a lot of organizations, you know, lack making any improvements is they may not have the buy-in from the athletes.

Jason Colleran:

And back to the you know the water bags. I was at a spring training camp and you know, talking to a coach and saying, you know, why are you doing that? You could be very you could be a lot more precise with the force angle that you want to apply, you know, into rotation. So he got the guy out and he said, hey, he loves water bags. And I said okay, why? Well, you know everybody's using them. I said, well, what's your point of application of force? What's the line of force? What's the moment arm? How does that change throughout that?

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

range, what is your overall resistance profile? And I just got this blank stare and, uh, I, I don't know, I'm like it looks cool. Then why are you here? Paul skeens, does it right, it looks cool, right. Every exercise should have, should have, a purpose and an immediate, measurable outcome and and be done with intention With intention.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

So if I do like, people are amazed, right, I have my own foam roller and you know, test their strength, right. Do 10 or 15 scapular depressions, retest. I'm like, yeah, right, Because you're correcting movement how it's supposed to be. The exercise is done with a purpose. It has a specific, measurable result which is positive. So, Jason, I cannot thank you enough for coming on again. You're by far my favorite guest that I've ever had. Sorry, Jim Rooney, you might be too. So how do they find you? How do they get this kinetic arm, which I wholeheartedly endorse? Okay, it's, it's fantastic, especially, you know, as a racing tool, as a neuromuscular application tool to to help the arm know that this is how and this is where it's supposed to stop and this is where it's supposed to start. I think it's, it's fantastic.

Jason Colleran:

Yeah, thank you. So the the kineticarmcom and we've got uh. On the how it works page we have some great case studies from university of Texas at Tyler um PLNU out in San Diego. There they're doing some research now as well and, uh, we've got some good data. And then on the uh testimonials page, we have never paid one single dollar for any testimonial or review from any of those orthopedic surgeons. You know DPTs, pts, and we never will because it works. So, yeah, thekineticarmcom, and if for some reason you have a question that isn't answered on the website, feel free to reach out through the website and we'll get you all taken care of and make sure you have a good understanding of why it's important to wear it at every level and give you you know kind of the applications for it.

Dr. Kevin McGovern:

Awesome and I ask the listeners to like and subscribe my YouTube channel. You can find me at KMcGovernPT on most social media platforms. Again, thank you for listening. Jason, thank you again for coming on. This is a great. This is a great show.

Jason Colleran:

Thank you. Thank you, yeah, thanks for having me again.

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